Evidence of meeting #32 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offender.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Don Head  Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Michael Côté  Director General, Rights, Redress and Resolution, Correctional Service of Canada
Shane Dalton  Acting Analyst, Offender Redress , Correctional Service of Canada

4:55 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Jay Aspin Conservative Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

What would this be in total?

4:55 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

Don Head

We haven't costed all of that out. Part of the problem with trying to do an expanded cost is that because we have the alternative dispute resolution process going on, if we realize some savings and I give you a number now, it might be different in the future. We focused on the 25 individuals who are filing more than 100 grievances a year, and we're able to say that, based on those individuals, we don't think the alternative dispute resolution process is going to have an impact on them. Therefore, the cost savings is between a quarter million and half a million dollars.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Jay Aspin Conservative Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON

This alternative dispute resolution process, is it to partially offset difficulties in this area?

4:55 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

Don Head

Yes, in part. It's meant to help us out with our overall grievance system. We want to be more timely, more expeditious in giving responses. We want to find solutions at the lowest level possible, as opposed to the present system in which they come up to the second and third levels. For these 25, those individuals we call hard-core grievers, I'm not convinced that the alternative dispute resolution process will have any impact at all.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Aspin.

We'll now move to Mr. Scarpaleggia.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

The 25 who seem to be the core of the problem must be pretty angry individuals.

4:55 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

Don Head

I wouldn't necessarily call them angry. They're dedicated, bored. They are dedicated to what they're doing, but they're not necessarily individuals we see acting out in a violent way.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

You saw where I was going with that.

Why are you against the idea of following the suggestion of Dr. Mullan on multiple grievers? He suggested that if you're designated a multiple griever you would have to confine yourself to a limited number of grievances or complaints. In other words, you'd have something like a complaints budget. We know that budgeting instills a sense of responsible choice, so why are you dismissing the idea of a cap?

4:55 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

Don Head

It's partly because of the administration behind it. We'd have to start now to keep score of how many per individual.

These numbers that I've given you throughout this afternoon are numbers we've had to extract through our system. We've had to put in place significant coding systems to be able to track this. If we put in another set of numbers, so you have whatever the number, 50 a year or 25 a year, that you can bring forward, that means I have my staff tied up in terms of counting grievances for offenders. What happens when you get to the 25 mark, and the 26th one happens to be a situation that does fall under life, liberty, and security? Then we're back into the normal process anyway. So it becomes an administrative burden for us.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

I don't really understand that. It's just an extra column in the spreadsheet.

So you're saying that if somebody is designated a vexatious complainant, this will not prevent them from making a legitimate complaint that is related to life, security, and something else. How do you ensure that this won't be the case, that somehow they won't be cut off from making a legitimate complaint? How does that process work? Are there certain definitions of life, liberty, security?

4:55 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

Don Head

Yes. There's been some very good jurisprudence over the years in terms of what are more significant kinds of grievances, the concept of the duty to act fairly. For example, we know, just off the top, that a significant issue in relation to being placed in segregation is a significant liberty issue. If there is something around there, it's going to require a look at it; it's going to require us to examine that situation.

In this case, what we initially envision if somebody is deemed to be a vexatious griever--again, for that relatively small number across the country--we're going to have to just monitor the nature of the complaint, as opposed to starting the whole process of investigation at the complaint stage and at the various levels of the grievance stage.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

If they've been designated as a vexatious griever, basically their whole ability to appeal anything is shut down. So how could they appeal the fact that they have a liberty, life, security complaint that is not receiving its fair evaluation or that is not being acted upon, that they've been shut down? What if at that particular institution they just happen to have a bad management group, or whatever? It could happen anywhere. They're stuck, would you not say?

5 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

Don Head

Again, we have to work out some of the details around how that flagging would work in the institution for those individuals on those kinds of cases so that the warden becomes aware of that.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

So it hasn't been worked out yet. I guess that's the point I'm trying to make.

5 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

Don Head

No, but one of the other safeguards I mentioned earlier is that this offender can pick up the phone and call the Office of the Correctional Investigator right away.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

That's a good point.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Very quickly.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Now, Dr. Mullan said there needed to be a significant enhancement of training provided to correctional officers. Also, I think the 2009 audit said the definition of “vexatious complaint” was not clear enough. Could you comment on those two things?

5 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

Don Head

Actually, I'll let Mr. Côté have a chance. He hasn't said anything this afternoon. I'll let him comment on that.

5 p.m.

Director General, Rights, Redress and Resolution, Correctional Service of Canada

Michael Côté

With regard to the training, we did look at that. We went to learning and development and developed a whole package for our correctional officers with regard to possibly training them on the grievance process.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

What about the definition of “vexatious complaint”? The chair read the definition the other day, which sounded pretty complete to me, but there was an issue about that.

5 p.m.

Director General, Rights, Redress and Resolution, Correctional Service of Canada

Michael Côté

Well, with the training we will go through all the processes as well as the definitions for those terms.

5 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

Don Head

One of the things that Mr. Côté and his staff have done in conjunction with our learning and development staff is develop, for lack of a better phrase, a knowledge management portal where people can go and get information as to what are the processes to be followed, what are the definitions, what are the timeframes. So there's greater access to front-line staff around these kinds of questions. Again, that's a direct follow-up to Professor Mullan's recommendations.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

I don't think—