Public Safety Committee on June 19th, 2012

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

On this change of regulation?

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Yes.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Oh. I thought it was Bill C-19.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

No, I'm just talking about what's before us today.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

On this, we've basically discussed what the process would be. How do we give effect to Bill C-19? This isn't a substantive change in any way. This is simply giving effect to or reinforcing the policy decision that we extensively consulted on.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

I have one more concern with this. If there's a shop that doesn't have to keep any records of these sales, are you not concerned about creating an incentive for organized crime to deal with specific gun shops that will keep no records, then, of the sales to organized crime figures?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

No, that doesn't concern me. I don't think that's the way these businesses operate, nor would organized crime proceed in that fashion.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

What would stop them from doing so if this regulation went forward? A store that has an interest in maximizing its profits on the sale of a piece of private property, as you call it, could do a lot of business with people who don't want records kept, in comparison to other gun shops.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

They wouldn't have to do that. They'd simply do as they are doing now—smuggle them in from the United States, which is what we are concerned about.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Smuggling would certainly be more difficult than going to your local gun shop to purchase them.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Anyway, there are many ways that criminals operate. Even with the registry, you can simply sell the gun to someone and the gun disappears.

Criminals do not bother about the paperwork. If they want to get a firearm, they're not going to go to a licensed gun shop and buy it and then commit a murder, especially not organized crime members.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Can I just say, though, that if we get another round, I'd like to ask the minister what other changes he's planning on gun control, then, based on this private property interpretation?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

We aren't discussing further policy coming down the road. We're discussing the regulations today.

We'll go back to the government side.

Ms. Hoeppner, did you want...?

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

I'll just start, and then I'm going to share my time with Mr. Norlock.

I just wanted to answer and confirm what Minister Toews said. Indeed, we have consulted with all the stakeholders in regard to ending the requirements for businesses and individuals to register long guns. These regulations bring into force what we have already discussed, what my colleagues and I have discussed with stakeholders, which was very clear: ending those requirements for businesses and individuals to register long guns.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Do you have a list of these stakeholders?

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

I'd be happy to talk to my colleague about that. Sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just for the edification of my constituents, who may be watching this if it's televised or may read it in the blues, I will quote an iPolitics interview with Mr. Mulcair on April 12, 2012: “I will work to register firearms. The public and the police have a right to be protected.... It is a monumental error”. And he goes on to talk about....

So there is some accuracy to that statement.

Also, for the edification—

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

There is accuracy to the statement that the NDP would—

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

To the statement that he would bring back the registry.

Also, my constituents—and I have spoken to some—who have spoken to firearms sellers were told by the chief provincial firearms officer that they would be asked, from time to time, to forward those records to them for their own purposes. Indeed, the government brought in that regulation because it was going to be used as a backdoor registry. I got that personally from people who actually are wholesalers to businesses that sell firearms.

My constituents would also be keenly interested in knowing the minister's estimate of the cost of a new registry in this modern day and age, if we were no longer the government and the official opposition were the government, seeing as Public Safety did have oversight of the firearms registry.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

You know, I wouldn't even attempt to guess that. I remember when, of course, Allan Rock brought forward the long-gun registry, and he said it would be a net of $2 million. That ballooned. You have estimates from $1 billion to the CBC's estimate of $2 billion. I don't know who's right on that, but certainly it's north of $1 billion.

People have said to me, well, by just simply getting rid of it, aren't you wasting an asset that's worth $2 billion? In fact, just because you pay $2 billion for something doesn't mean it's worth a dime. This is truly the case with the long-gun registry. It is so out of date. It is so full of errors. There isn't, to my knowledge, a police officer in Canada who would, on the basis of the registry, say, “I'm going to go through that door. The registry says there are no guns in this house, so therefore I don't have to worry about a gun.” There is a not a police officer in Canada who would be foolish enough to think that.

In terms of real security, the best security is good training of police officers on the ground to deal effectively with these criminals who, in fact, use guns against their fellow citizens.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

So as a point of clarification, Minister, what you're saying is that you, representing the Government of Canada, making this regulation, are not prohibiting anyone from keeping records. Would I be correct in telling my constituents that all this regulation does is to protect the previous legislation that did away with the firearms legislation and protect the vendors of firearms from being pressured into having another government, be it provincial, or it could be municipal, from bringing in a type of firearm registry?

I mentioned municipal, Minister, because the City of Toronto is now talking about some prohibitions for firearms, etc.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Well, look, if we're getting back to the cost, obviously in a province like Ontario the cost would be staggering in terms of recreating a long-gun registry.

I think if Ontario is really concerned about cracking down on crime, then police officers, and stronger laws, in certain respects, as we have given them.... The reverse onus on bail, for example, for those who use firearms in the course of a robbery is I think a very effective tool. It's a very subtle tool but a very effective tool. Police in Vancouver are telling me now that criminals simply don't go out carrying a gun just for show. When they carry a gun, it's for a specific purpose.

Now, that's not good either, but the point is that we reduced the number of people actually carrying guns out on the street because they fear that if they're caught with guns, they won't get bail. And if they don't get bail, they can't go about their drug and other racketeering.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

I just have one little statement here. I've been elected five times as a member of Parliament, and this has been, to my constituents, a major issue. My riding very clearly wanted to see the end of the long-gun registry.

This week I was approached by an individual who came up to me and showed me his firearms acquisition licence. He showed it with a great deal of pride. When he brought it up to me, I looked at it and wondered why he was showing it to me. Was there an error on it? Did he have to get it renewed? I didn't know what it was.

Really, he came up and showed it to me because he was proud that he had gone through the process of receiving a licence. He'd had a criminal check done and he'd had a safety course. He'd gone through this and he was now licensed to have it. But he was very pleased that there was no registry. He even asked that we thank the government and thank you specifically for that.

Mr. Minister, thank you for appearing here.

Ms. Hoeppner has her hand in the air.

Go ahead.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I move that the committee report the regulations back to the House, as per section 118 of the Firearms Act.