Evidence of meeting #72 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Okay, but there is training at the moment for sure.
9:15 a.m.
Senior Director, Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
Yes.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Is it just that you feel it's not mandatory or it's not specialized enough?
9:15 a.m.
Senior Director, Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
Well, if I can follow up a bit, we're blurring two different kinds of training. Our recommendation that specialized training be given to all harassment investigators was made, as Mr. McPhail said, because harassment investigations have different components than criminal investigations.
The second part of the training piece concerns the RCMP's training overall on sensitivity around harassment issues. Members get training when they go to Depot and are recruits. There are several levels of training throughout a member's career, and what we found in the report was that the training is excellent but it's just not given to enough members. So our other recommendation is that the training be given to as many members as possible. Ideally, every member of the RCMP should be trained not as a harassment investigator but about the issues of harassment and sensitivity training.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Okay, but we're talking here about investigators per se. Harassment investigators receive mandatory, specialized training in respect to conducting investigations. So at the moment their training isn't sufficient, or not enough of the investigators receive the training for whatever reason. It may be a lack of funding or what have you.
9:15 a.m.
Senior Director, Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
The reason, as Mr. McPhail said, is that it's an organization of police officers. So they're not required by Treasury Board policy to have the mandatory training because they're police officers.
What we're saying is that it shouldn't get them out of having the mandatory training.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Right, okay.
That brings me to the issue of Treasury Board guidelines. I'm told this is a very complicated aspect of the problem currently, the fact that there are two sets of complaints processes, if you will. I was wondering if you could elaborate on that and the interaction between the two and how the fact of having two complicates matters even more.
9:15 a.m.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
That's a key element, which is why we looked at the process. The Treasury Board guidelines at play here, combined with the RCMP's internal rules, tend to make this process unwieldy. There are multiple processes.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
When it comes to a sexual harassment complaint, for example, does the force use the Treasury Board process or the RCMP process? I was told by someone at committee when we were studying Bill C-42 that if it's sexual harassment, they have to move from the Treasury Board guidelines to some RCMP process. Is that the case?
9:15 a.m.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
Yes.
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
But that makes it much more complicated, I guess.
You mentioned informal reporting and how records should be kept of informal complaints. On the surface that, of course, appears to be an excellent recommendation. Have you thought about the law of unintended consequences? If you say you're going to keep records of all informal complaints, those could be anything from someone walking into their supervisor's office and saying they don't get along with the person sitting next to them and find them a bit rude, to....
Do you think the requirement to record informal matters might create a chill in the organization whereby some people might think that if they walked into the supervisor's office with a complaint, the next thing they would know is that it was then part of a file somewhere, which they didn't mean to happen, simply because it concerned a clash of personalities? I don't know if that's a legitimate scenario, but have you thought about that as well?
9:20 a.m.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
Yes, we have considered that because you're quite right. You always have to be cautious of having unintended consequences. If a matter is subject to informal resolution, I would not anticipate the file being of the same nature as that for a formal complaint investigation. That said, the senior officers of the RCMP simply do not know what's going on in that regard.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much for your questions, and we welcome Madame Day to our committee. You have five minutes, please.
9:20 a.m.
NDP
Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for being here.
In your office, 718 files have been opened. But according to popular belief and communications, for each complaint filed, there are 21 people who have not filed a complaint. With some quick math, that gives us a total of approximately 15,078 possible complaints.
When the systemic problem of harassment in the RCMP comes up, people often wonder if it is a myth or a reality.
On that, I will quote the conclusion of your report.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
9:20 a.m.
NDP
Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
It states the following:
...the simple perception of the existence of systemic poor treatment of employees by colleagues and supervisors regardless of gender, … is itself sufficient to have a negative impact on both public confidence and the manner in which the police are regarded.
Be it myth or reality, we can say that there is a systemic impact. I am a little stunned. In fact, it's always the same: the guilty parties are often better protected than the victims. Attempts are made to resolve the complaint before it becomes public and ensure that the people involved come to an understanding, so that there is no complaint and it doesn't go any further.
When someone steals a single litre of milk from a grocery store, that person is arrested. We go to great lengths for a litre of milk. This is a matter of harassment. It's serious, and not something to be taken lightly. The RCMP's overall reputation is at stake here. It's really serious.
You spoke about supervisors. How many of them are men? How many of them are women? And how many people are considered? Are any of the supervisors women and, if so, what percentage?
9:20 a.m.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
Madame, you have a number of questions there.
Approximately 18% of the members of the RCMP are women. In terms of the percentage of supervisors, it's my understanding that the percentage is not dissimilar. But I must admit that I was perhaps confused by your statement that there were 20 unreported cases for each reported case of harassment. That's not a number I'm familiar with.
9:20 a.m.
NDP
Anne-Marie Day NDP Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Let's make things clear. I said that, according to popular belief, for every complaint filed, a number of people who thought the same thing do not file a complaint. I did not say there were unreported cases in the RCMP.
I would like to know whether, when a complaint is filed about someone, is that person systematically told?
9:25 a.m.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
When a complaint is filed it depends on the nature of the investigation. If it goes to a formal hearing, yes, they certainly would be told.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
9:25 a.m.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
Yes.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much, Madame Day.
We'll now move back to Mr. Norlock, please, for five minutes.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and through you to the witnesses, thank you for appearing today.
Sir, did you do a good job in this investigation, and did your report reflect what actually occurred?
9:25 a.m.
Interim Chair, Chair's Office, Royal Canadian Mounted Police Public Complaints Commission
I'm sorry?