Public Safety Committee on May 12th, 2015

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Colleagues, we are starting meeting number 69 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, May 6, we will be dealing with Bill C-637, an act to amend the Criminal Code (firearms storage and transportation). We'll be here for an hour today.

We have one witness before us today, the creator of the bill, Mr. Robert Sopuck, member of Parliament for Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette.

Mr. Sopuck, we'll give you the floor for up to 10 minutes to explain the bill, should you wish, and then we will go to a round of questioning.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Thank you very much.

I'm very pleased to be here talking about my first private member's bill. It reminds me of that old saying which many of you are aware of that those with weak stomachs should neither watch law nor sausages being made. This was an interesting process.

I was pleased to introduce Bill C-637, an act to amend the Criminal Code (firearms storage and transportation) for two very important reasons. This is an important technical clarification to the Criminal Code and the keyword is “technical”.

Under the law currently, items such as BB guns, paintball guns, and other barrelled items that shoot a projectile at a low velocity are exempted from the licensing requirements that are placed on conventional firearms. Why is that? It is because Parliament recognized that there is a fundamental difference between a Daisy BB gun and a hunting rifle. However, certain areas of the Criminal Code were not included in this exemption. That is why I introduced the bill.

Under the current law, an individual could face serious jail time for not taking “reasonable care and precaution” when storing or transporting BB guns or paintball guns. What precisely does this mean? It is unclear because it is an undefined term under the law. Does that mean trigger-locking all paintball guns or perhaps storing BB guns in a separate locked container from the pellets?

At the end of the day, it could mean many things to many people. This bill brings uniformity to the Criminal Code treatment of these items.

This brings me to my second reason for introducing this legislation. Quite frankly, it is all about our Canadian outdoors culture.

I'm the very proud chair of the Conservative hunting and angling caucus. We are the only party that has such a caucus. There are four million Canadians who participate in sport shooting, trapping, fishing, and hunting, and that's actually an underestimate.

However, I fundamentally believe that the New Democrats and Liberals continue to believe that these activities are reserved for rural people who are out of the mainstream of Canadian society. Greg Farrant from the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters said this before this very committee:

Firearms owners in Canada are judges, lawyers, farmers, electricians, mechanics, plumbers, accountants, even federal politicians, many of whom...live in and represent urban ridings. They are not criminals. They are not gang members. Rather, they are lawful firearms owners who obey the law.

However, it is clear that this message has not yet sunk in and some members of the Liberal Party and NDP took the debate on my bill as an opportunity to criticize outdoor enthusiasts by saying that those who want to be able to obey clear rules are part of an American-style gun lobby or are advocating for a return to, as one NDP member from Quebec said, “wild west gun laws”.

This is patently ridiculous and it is offensive to the millions of Canadians who use harmless items like BBs for recreation. They're harmless when they're used in a proper way, I might add.

The fact of the matter is that many outdoor enthusiasts, hunters and sport shooters, got their start with such devices as BB guns. I include myself in that group. The laws as they are currently drafted discourage ownership of even BB guns.

This is not about behaving irresponsibly with these items. In fact, I learned my respect for firearms and the importance of safe storage with my initial use of a BB gun. Indeed, my time as a hunter and angler has led me to a 40-year career in environmental conservation. This is a common path along which many people in the conservation professions have travelled.

It is about respect for those who enjoy our outdoor heritage activities. One of the Liberal members, the public safety critic, had this to say in the House:

There appears to be no dispute of the fact that BB guns, pellet guns, and air guns are weapons and are fully capable of discharging a projectile, which can cause serious injury, if not death.

I don't do this very often, but I do agree with Mr. Easter. If used irresponsibly, these items can do harm, but so can knifes. There were 195 stabbing homicides in Canada in 2013 and there are no criminal penalties for storage methods for these items which, if used irresponsibly, can cause serious injury.

It comes down to this. Should someone want to walk down to a ravine with a BB gun to shoot some pop cans off a tree stump, the government should not create red tape to try and discourage this type of activity. We should use good common sense to approach this issue. That is what this bill strives to achieve. It exempts transport and storage of these items from criminal sanction as previous laws have exempted licensing. However, it keeps unsafe use of these items as a criminal charge. It still remains a crime to use one of these items unsafely. It is still an aggravating factor to use one of these items during the commission of a crime.

In short, I believe this bill builds upon our Conservative government's record of safe and sensible firearm legislation.

In closing, we know the Liberals and the NDP would, if given a chance, bring back the wasteful, ineffective long-gun registry. We know former Liberal cabinet minister Allan Rock said that he came to Ottawa firmly with the belief that only the police and military should have access to firearms. I'm concerned that the views of the Liberals and the NDP on conventional firearms also extend to a desire to take BB guns and paintball guns out of the hands of Canadians.

I'd like to thank the committee for its time today, and I would be pleased to answer any questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sopuck.

We will now go to our rounds of questioning.

On the first round, for seven minutes, Ms. James.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Mr. Sopuck, I'd like to thank you for bringing this bill to committee after having it go through the House, as well as for your work as the chair of the hunting and angling caucus. That's also very important.

You mentioned that four million Canadians are actually involved in outdoor activities such as this. You're absolutely correct. It's not just people in the rural and remote areas who participate. A number of constituents in my riding of Scarborough Centre fall into that category as well.

With regard to this legislation, I will just reaffirm that the government does support this bill. There are a number of reasons that we do. First and foremost, it's common sense. Second, it supports law-abiding Canadians who do participate in outdoor activities such as the ones you talked about in your opening remarks.

You did mention very briefly that it's a technical clarification based on a recent Supreme Court decision that has left a bit of a grey area with regard to storage and transportation. I'm wondering if you could comment a bit further on why it's so important to bring this legislation forward to clarify the sections of the Criminal Code. You mentioned that it could make someone a criminal very instantly. Could you specifically relate it to paintball and pellet gun owners and the differences between those types of activities versus, as you mentioned, other types of firearms?

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

The devices that I'm referring to are basically low velocity devices that will eject a projectile below 500 feet per second. A trial court initially acquitted an individual who used one of these items. This case is still before the court, so I'm referring specifically to the particular item he used. An appellate court reversed that decision. This exposed another area of firearms law that clearly is not clear. The appellate court held that a BB gun or air rifle should be considered a firearm under the current provisions of the Firearms Act and Criminal Code even though the trial court held the opposite view.

I think it's important to settle this dispute over what legally is and what legally is not a firearm under the Firearms Act and the Criminal Code. Keep in mind that the very term itself, “firearm”, has the word “fire” in it which implies that a propellent is ignited and that discharges a projectile. What I am talking about are clearly not firearms, and the notion of having a Firearms Act come to bear on people who own relatively harmless devices such as paintball guns is quite simply absurd.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

You also mentioned in your opening remarks that these types of firearms, BB guns, paintball guns, and so forth, are actually exempt from licensing. Other firearms have to follow a very strong and stringent regime for the safety of all.

Could you talk about that just for a moment?

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Sure. I've owned a possession and acquisition licence for decades. Again, these other devices that we're talking about, the BB guns and low velocity air guns, have always been exempt from any kind of registration. Of course, our government eliminated the wasteful and ineffective long-gun registry a couple of years ago, much to the great thanks of the outdoors community. To have these devices that are simply not in the same classification of firearms falling under the same kinds of laws as firearms do again is something that my bill would fix. As I said, it is a technical amendment.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Sopuck.

I understand you're also a bit of an author. You didn't talk about it too much in your remarks, but I actually remember the book itself. It was a series of short stories with regard to the outdoor community. I think you probably have a very good understanding of outdoor enthusiasts, and their lifestyles and so forth.

The opposition has consistently opposed any measures to protect that lifestyle to support those enthusiasts. Why do you think that is? I can't understand it. Obviously, I have a very urban riding in Toronto. A number of constituents fit into that category, and I can't for the life of me understand why the opposition would be so against these types of common-sense measures to support this community.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Again, I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding of what this community is into.

To be fair, I know that some of my colleagues across the way participate in this. One can look at the Conservative caucus that I am so proud to belong to. We have Mr. Norlock, whose private member's bill, for example, reserved the third Saturday in September as a hunting, trapping, and fishing heritage day. Our caucus has a deep-seated understanding of this community. It's unfortunate that many people want to pigeonhole the outdoors community using various terms like “gun lobby” and so on.

I happen to represent a very large, sprawling, beautiful rural constituency where firearm ownership is ubiquitous. When I think of the family get-togethers over meals of wild game, the community suppers with garden vegetables and so on, that's a way of life which I deeply cherish and which I became an MP to vigorously defend. It's truly unfortunate that some people choose to demonize that way of life and want to see many of these activities come to an end. I vow to stop that.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Very quickly, I know we have a number of witnesses scheduled to come in on Thursday, but do you have any comments from some of the groups across Canada that are supporting this legislation? Can you provide some of those comments right now? I know there's only a minute, but could you do that very quickly?

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

I certainly could.

The Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters strongly endorses it. This is a quote from them:

On behalf of the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters (OFAH), our 100,000 members, supporters and subscribers, and our 725 member clubs across Ontario, we are pleased to support Bill C-637.

The Northwestern Ontario Sportsmen's Alliance said:

We agree that the court decision to define air rifles as “firearms” sets a precedent that threatens the freedom of millions of Canadians who simply wish to purchase air guns over the counter....

What's next, licensing for water pistols?

Safari Club International - Canada said:

We at SCI-Canada thank you for taking the time to bring some common sense back to the forefront and fully support the private members bill that you have brought forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you, Mr. Sopuck.

If you wish to add to that list a little later on in the testimony, you're welcome to.

In the meantime, we will go to Mr. Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sopuck, for being here. You greeted me on the way in and said that you're just a farm boy, and of course I always have to respond to you that so am I. I'm one of those people who got a BB gun for Christmas as a kid, and I was taught all my gun safety lessons with a BB gun before moving on to, as I say, harder stuff.

So amidst all this saying that the NDP will bring out the gun registry, which it will obviously not, and all this swirling we're doing around this bill, I think there are a couple of very basic questions. One has to do with how kids learn gun safety. I raised this with you in debate in the House of Commons. I think a lot of kids learn gun safety the way I did, with weapons that are not licensed. I have trouble understanding why you would want to break that parallel of safe storage and transportation of guns, for instance, BB guns. Isn't it a good idea for kids to learn those good habits before they have higher velocity rifles to work with? Why would we break that and say it's okay to transport these one way and then when you get a licence and you get a real gun, you have to do it a different way? Isn't there some value in having those be parallel?

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

I certainly agree with you, Mr. Garrison, that all of these devices—and I refuse to use the term “weapon”, because these aren't, in fact. People use the term “weapon” for those kinds of things, but I simply refuse to. My .30-06 is not a weapon. It is a firearm. There's a big difference.

In terms of the transport of BB guns, for example, a child should be taught about safe transport and storage of these things, and the law does not need to get involved with these relatively harmless devices. To your first point regarding the NDP and the long-gun registry, I would refer to a December 2014 statement by your leader. The headline of the article reads, “NDP would track every gun, Mulcair vows”, and “A New Democratic government would ensure police are able to track every firearm in Canada”.

That is a very clear statement from your leader saying that if he were given a chance—and that will never happen—he would bring the gun registry back.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Sopuck, it's clearly not. You can extrapolate from that whatever you like. What we're talking about is the fact that we have lots of guns that come into the country illegally and we have lots of guns that are actually manufactured here without serial numbers. There he was clearly referring to sales records and being able to know who is exchanging guns with whom, but that really has nothing to do with your bill. I want to come back to your bill.

Did you talk to the police about this bill, and if so, what's their opinion on it?

I did talk to some police who were quite worried about the inability to distinguish some of these low-velocity guns from firearms for which there are different regulations. I heard a concern from front-line police that if something's in a gun rack in a truck, they're not going to be able to tell what it is at a glance. They had a concern for public safety because of the loosening of these regulations for transport.

I just wonder if you talked to the police and whether you heard the same kinds of concerns.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Well, to me, a police officer should approach every potential dangerous situation with due caution, regardless of what they think there may or may not be in a certain vehicle.

Again, my bill would restore what the law was before the Supreme Court's decision in November 2014. The police never raised the law as it stood prior to November 2014 as being an issue that needed to be addressed. No police contacted me to say they opposed this bill after it was introduced and debated in the House of Commons.

I would make the point that many Canadians have contacted me to thank me for this common-sense move. I would also make the point that the use of these devices—to point an air rifle, for example, at a person in a threatening way—remains clearly illegal. I think the proper safeguards are there to protect public and police safety while at the same time ensuring that law-abiding owners of these devices are kept safe.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

So you did not talk to the police, to any of the police organizations, before introducing this bill.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Well, we worked hard to ensure that law-abiding Canadians were looked after.

I would make the point that the police never raised this issue with me prior to November 2014—

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

But did you raise this bill with them?

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

No.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

You talked about this one case and about law-abiding people running into this problem. I'd like to know how many cases you know of where we've run into legal problems over this change you're trying to make.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Well, it was this particular case that went to the Supreme Court that precipitated my private member's bill. Prior to the appellate court and the Supreme Court reversing the decision that the trial court judge made, to my knowledge this issue never came up. There was the odd case prior, when one of these devices that looks like a real firearm was used in the commission of a crime. That was a crime then and it remains a crime now.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

In other words, we're really talking about one case.

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

We're talking about a technical amendment to the Firearms Act as a result of this one particular case, yes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

To go back to the general question of public safety, did you talk to any people who work with kids in terms of gun safety before you introduced this bill?