Public Safety Committee on March 20th, 2018

[Supt Warren Coons]

No, I don't.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Have you changed anything in the way you use the ion scanners since 2016-17?

[Supt Warren Coons]

No. Perhaps the only thing I could suggest is the difference in thresholds. Maybe we didn't fully explain this. In order for there to be what we consider a positive hit to trigger the threat risk assessment process, somebody has to meet the threshold. In other words, we don't record anything below the threshold.

On fentanyl, for instance, you may hit 25—and don't ask me about nanograms, because I'm not the technical person. You might hit 25, where the threshold is 100. We don't record that. That is something that the ion scanner did detect. Whether or not that's a reference to that, frankly, I'm purely speculating.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

This is actually helpful for me, though. Let me clarify one more thing. You're using this test only on visitors, right? It's not on your contractors and not on your staff?

[Rob Campney]

We use it on volunteers, and we use it on contractors as well.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Okay. The only excluded group is staff. So I come in, and if you were going to, you would then do the swab for the ion scanner. If I am below the threshold but still something is detected, you will get a “beep, beep, beep” positive of some sort, right? Is that what you're saying?

I'm trying to figure out what you're talking about when you say below the threshold and above the threshold.

[Supt Warren Coons]

You won't get an alarm. You may have been in contact, but you will not get an alarm.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Will I somehow know that there was a positive? How would the Office of the Correctional Investigator see that as a positive?

[Supt Warren Coons]

Again, to be honest with you, Mr. Chair, I would be speculating. I do not know the answer to your question.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Did you ever ask them for the basis for those stats? While you're trying to figure out your own stats and respond to them, did you ever ask?

[Supt Warren Coons]

I did not, Mr. Chair.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I don't mean you individually; I mean as an institution.

[Rob Campney]

No, we didn't.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Is there any evidence that the use of the ion scanner has reduced the amount of contraband drugs in any of your institutions?

[Supt Warren Coons]

I don't believe that the causal effect of one of those tools has ever been studied as it relates to Correctional Service of Canada. I don't think we would know the answer to that question specifically.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

You don't have those stats available? You've never looked at it to see if it actually reduces contraband use?

[Supt Warren Coons]

That is correct.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I know I don't have much time, so I have just a quick question for CBSA.

Just to clarify for people, when you're talking about the ion scanners, most people who go through the airport will have contact with an ion scanner of some sort when they go through security or have a random test for something and they swab. That's not being used for narcotics. Is that correct? I mean for the average person going into an airport. I just want to clarify.

[Johny Prasad]

If you're speaking about aviation security, it's CATSA and I can't speak on behalf of CATSA. I can say, though, that if you are selected for an examination for CBSA, an officer may use the ion scan device as well as the X-rays and all the other tools that—

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I just want to clarify for people who are going through airports so that they understand that, so thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin.

Before I call on Mr. Calkins for five minutes, I'm hearing some sort of elevated noise over here that I'm sure will cease once Mr. Calkins begins his questioning.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Mr. Chair, that's only because the room will be riveted on what I have to say.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Well, that's it. I'm anticipating that.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Mr. Chair, just before I start questioning our excellent witnesses here, I have a question for the clerk. At a previous meeting of this committee, I asked the then acting commissioner, Mr. Daniel Dubeau, for clarification. Has he submitted anything to the committee to clarify or provided answers that he wasn't able to give, at this particular point in time?

Okay, that's no problem. I'm hoping that will come in due course and that we're following up to get those answers.

Good morning, gentlemen. I'm the member of Parliament for Red Deer—Lacombe. I'm happily situated and a representative of the Pê Sâkâstêw facility in central Alberta and slightly north of both facilities in Drumheller and Bowden.

I deal with folks who are employed by Correctional Services Canada all the time, who make themselves available to me and provide me with all kinds of information. I'm going to ask some questions about this, because I'm very concerned. Some of the folks who are in the employment of Correctional Services Canada have made it very clear to me that contraband drugs, cigarettes, and all kinds of contraband, whatever it happens to be, are actually massively prevalent in some of the institutions.

I'm seeking some clarification. What is a contraband pack of smokes worth inside a prison facility? What's a contraband joint worth, and how does so much of this stuff actually get inside, notwithstanding the fact we already have the security measures that we're talking about? I think some at this committee have suggested that there are concerns that the ion scanning is preventing people from having access for visits. If we loosen that up, how much worse is it going to get with the contraband in these facilities?

I'm very concerned about this stuff, because officers' safety, the integrity of our system, and everything is at stake here

[Supt Warren Coons]

I don't know if I can comment on the price, and I'm not certain that Mr. Campney can either.