Public Safety Committee on May 7th, 2018

[D/Commr Kevin Brosseau]

Thank you for the reminder. Shame on me for forgetting that.

Absolutely, the broad outside external review, or oversight role, that the Philadelphia model entails is exactly another portion of our way forward. We can become navel-gazers and too introspective in terms of how we handle it. Let's rely on those with specific expertise about the things we may not even consider are important to have that second look—sober second thought, if you will—around how these are handled and a way forward—a broad stroke on policy, training, and/or who handles these cases in the first place.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Now we move to Mr. Carrie. Welcome to the committee.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the commissioner for being here.

I liked in your opening remarks that you said you were looking forward to the major opportunities and challenges going forward.

I want to talk about probably one of your first challenges moving forward, the legalization of marijuana. I came from the health committee. Looking after the health and safety Canadians I think is on top of everybody's mind.

I think Canadians would like to know whether your organization is fully ready for the legalization of marijuana as far as public safety and road safety are concerned. We know the drug recognition expert program isn't where it needs to be. The Canadian Centre on Substance Abuse and Addiction recommends that Canada have about 2,000 DREs, and I don't think we're even close to that.

As the premier policing organization in Canada—I know you've had funds from the federal government, unlike some of our local police departments that haven't had that funding to move forward—are you ready?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

We will be ready, absolutely. We are doing drug recognition expert training as we speak. We had our first Canadian course in Vancouver, I believe, two weeks ago. That was a major coup for us. Normally it's down in the States, and we brought it to Canada. I can't say exactly how many courses we have planned....

Kevin, how many courses do we have planned?

[D/Commr Kevin Brosseau]

About 10.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

We have about 10 planned for the next fiscal year. Right now we have almost 200 drug recognition experts in the RCMP, but the numbers obviously are larger when we include all the different police forces.

The other aspect for the marijuana is that we have the DRE side, but we also have to train our members on the legislation itself so that when the legislation goes through, our members will be ready to know what to do with the legislation as far as operationalizing it is concerned.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

One of the challenges, too, is the science behind determining impairment. What is the scientific standard you'll be using for determining impairment?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I have no idea. Sorry.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

It's okay. We heard about blood samples to determine if.... You can have a DRE do the sobriety test, and that will tell you so much. I believe there's some testing—

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes. There's saliva testing—

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

—perhaps saliva testing and stuff, but it may require blood testing.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

It's not very far away. To hear you say that you have no idea, I'm a little bit concerned about that.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Well, specifically, I don't, but I know that there is both saliva and blood testing. I know that in Europe they have roadside....

Actually, we had the commissioner from Australia at the training academy, and they have all kinds of testing that they're doing, but there's legislation that goes with every single bit of testing.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

To hold up in Canadian courts as well, to my understanding, for the blood testing in Canada you have to do it under the supervision of a medical professional.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Normally this would be done at a hospital. Have any funds been given to ramp up the capacity in hospitals? A physician does not have to provide that service. If we're looking at precedents in court, if we're getting this happening in a couple of months, it would be really bad case law if things weren't in place. Do you know if funds have been given to hospitals to ramp up that capacity?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I can't speak to hospitals specifically. What I can say is that in drinking and driving, we often take blood samples, and we do that at the hospital very successfully.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Yes, but there may be a requirement to increase that capacity—

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

To increase the number.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

—and I was just wondering about that.

The minister is here. Maybe he could inform us. I note that in the budget there was, I believe, $167 million for DREs. Now, assuming that's $20,000 per officer—I know the Arizona costs—that's only 83 officers more than we have now. My number is that 665 Canadian officers are trained. We need 2,000. That's the DRE side of it, but what about for the blood testing?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Mr. Carrie, the Department of Public Safety has been working with their departmental counterparts across the country to allocate the funding we've set aside for the implementation of both C-45 and C-46, and that is $270 million and some spread over a number of years. That is to make the new technology available, to accomplish the training that is necessary for the new technology, and to implement—

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Will the professionals be trained on the ground by July 1?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

The schedule has started now, as Commissioner Lucki has already mentioned, but it's spread over a period of, I believe, two years to get from where we used to be for both the DREs and the standard field sobriety testing, the officers who are trained in both of those capacities, to get—