Public Safety Committee on May 10th, 2018

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

It's a good program. It has served well, and now that we've expanded the terms and made the program more broadly publicized, the demand level has gone up. In future years, we'll have to examine whether or not the allocations we've budgeted so far are sufficient to meet the demand.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin.

Mr. Motz, take five minutes, please.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the committee's taking the time at the beginning of this meeting to remember Gord Brown—and your comments as well, Minister—given that his life celebration is occurring as we speak. Thank you for that.

Minister, my colleague talked about MS-13s using the loophole that exists now to illegally cross the border. You mentioned that you use biometrics and all the means possible to identify them and see whether they have any records. I appreciate that.

We know, however, from CBSA's on-the-ground officers, that the biometric system is broken. It's not working right now. As we speak today, it doesn't work, and they're not being trained on how to use the live scan devices. Apparently, there are more than 10,000 live scan fingerprints in a holding tank or a repository that are not associated with any person.

If that's the case, how are we sure that the illegal border crossers are not posing a threat to Canadian security?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Mr. Motz, the process used at the border by both the RCMP and CBSA is intended to be, and is, strong and secure, based on the best information and technology available. The statistics we have accumulated over the course of the last year of experience, when the irregular movement has been most pronounced, would indicate that the number of cases where there is a criminal issue involved is very small.

Maybe I could ask Mr. Ossowski to comment further, because his officers are responsible for administering this.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

No, that's fine. The number of those who have crossed to date might be small, but we know that there are criminal elements that will exploit this and are exploiting illegal border crossers. I'll move on.

We know that the costs with illegal border crossers are extensive. We know from immigration estimates that each illegal border crosser, while wading through the process, receives $15,000 to $20,000 annually in government handouts. There are additional costs on top of that.

The reports from you and Minister Hussen suggest that 90% of these will be deported, and you've indicated that you try to have them deported as quickly as possible. However, CBSA and Immigration and Citizenship tell us that deportation can take years. We have more than 14,000 people on a deportation inventory already, not even counting the illegal border crossers.

I'm curious about a couple of things. First, how are you going to pay the more than 300 million taxpayer dollars to cover the cost of illegal border crossers? Those are just the 2017 numbers; they're going to be higher in 2018. Will those who are being ordered deported continue to receive social assistance while they drag out the system?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Mr. Motz, part of what you've asked falls within the jurisdiction of IRCC under their settlement processes. As for the security issues, which are my responsibility, we have calculated as carefully as possible what the increased requirements are for CBSA and the RCMP, and the funds that were announced in the budget, some of which are included in these estimates, are adequate, we believe, on the basis of what we know now, to cover the incremental costs for policing and border security. Those are the things that are covered in these estimates.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

In line with that, we know the inventory that exists for deportation currently, without the illegal border crossers. We've been told that they can't get to them because of resources. It's expensive. If they leave voluntarily, it's about $1,500. Depending on where they're from and where they have to be taken to, it could be $6,000, $7,000, $8,000, or $10,000 to remove one person ordered deported.

If that's the case, where is the money going to come from? Is CBSA properly resourced to deal with the current backlog of inventory deportation orders? Then we have potentially tens of thousands more who are going to be ordered deported.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

CBSA will be—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Excuse me, Minister. That's an important question, but unfortunately Mr. Motz has left you no time to answer it. I'm sure you'll circle back to it, because it is an important question.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Yes, it certainly is. There is a lot of innuendo buried in that question as well, which demands a very vigorous response.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to need another occasion for it.

Ms. Damoff, you have five minutes, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, you've already talked about the memorial grant program. On Friday night, the Halton Regional Police Association organized a “battle of the badges” that had public safety officers boxing to raise money for Camp FACES, which is for families of first responders who have died in the line of duty and by suicide. On behalf of the thousand people who were there, and the many others in my riding and across Canada, I want to thank you sincerely for putting that program in place. It means a lot to those families.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

You make a point, Ms. Damoff, that I think is important. A public safety officer who has died as a result of suicide is also included.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

That's wonderful. I wasn't aware of that, Minister. Thank you.

Did you want to respond to Mr. Motz? I have a question, but did you want to take the opportunity to respond to his? It's up to you.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Mr. Ossowski has some responses about the effectiveness of the work of CBSA.

There is a provision in the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, in section 133, that regardless of how a person has crossed the border, the first obligation of the Government of Canada is to determine that person's status. If they are determined to be legitimate refugees seeking asylum and entitled to the protection of Canada, then they proceed through the system. If they are determined not to be in need of Canada's protection, then they are removed. The law obliges the government, first of all, to make that determination. Is their asylum claim legitimate or not? We are meticulously following the law to make sure that we answer that question properly, first and foremost.

I would note that section 133 is the law today, and it has been the law for the last two and a half years. It has been the law for the previous decade, and it was not changed by the previous government.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Minister, are Canadians safe? There seems to be innuendo here that Canadians are not safe. Are you confident that our security agencies are doing their fine work and that Canadians are safe?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

We are so fortunate in this country to have a border services agency such as CBSA, a police force such as the RCMP, and all the municipal and local counterparts they work with so effectively to serve Canadians with distinction. Yes, indeed, they accomplish standards of safety and security in this country that are among the highest in the world.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

I have only two minutes left, and I have a question about the opportunity for inmates in correctional facilities to get training and work.

Something that was restored in corrections is the penitentiary farms; there was $2.4 million for that. I had the opportunity to visit, in both Edmonton and Winnipeg, corrections facilities where they talked about the importance of this type of training and work. In fact, in Edmonton I visited the CORCAN facility that was shut down by the previous government.

Could you talk a little about these programs and also about whether there is any opportunity to restore these CORCAN facilities and provide job training for inmates? We know that their success on the outside is dependent on their receiving this kind of training and being able to find work when they are released from prison.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

We have made the commitment, Ms. Damoff, to re-establish prison farms at the two locations where they previously existed around Kingston. That initiative is under way. We hope to learn from that initiative about the proper way to go about this, and about their effectiveness and value in terms of rehabilitation within the system. Based on what we learn from that experience around Kingston, we would look forward to expanding this program elsewhere in the country.

In terms of job training and preparations to re-enter society, that's a core function of the correctional service. Obviously, public safety is job number one, but preparing people to re-engage with society in a crime-free way after sentences have been served is also a major objective of the CSC.

Anne, do you have anything further you'd like to say on that topic?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

If she does, she's going to have to work it into another answer. Again, I regret that time respects no one.

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have five minutes, please.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, once again we saw the budget costs related to the migrant crisis that followed our Prime Minister's unfortunate message on Twitter. Quebec asked the federal government for a reimbursement of $146 million, just for 2017, because of the social costs this has generated. Immigration-related costs are well known.

On your side, if you consider all of the public security agencies, what budget increase is needed now simply to manage the migrant crisis?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

The situation, as you know, began in an unusual way during January of last year.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Yes, and we know why.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Through the course of last year, the agencies, principally CBSA and the RCMP, were able to reorganize their affairs in such a way that they did not require an incremental request for funding. As they approached the new fiscal year, they both advised the government that they could continue, to a certain extent, to reallocate resources, but that they were probably at the limit of the flexibility they had internally. Accordingly, in the budget, the government put forward a financial commitment—

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

What is the amount?