Evidence of meeting #115 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was number.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rod Giltaca  Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director, Canadian Coalition for Firearm Rights
Tracey Wilson  Vice-President, Public Relations, Canadian Coalition for Firearm Rights
Steve Torino  President, Canadian Shooting Sports Association
Tony Bernardo  Executive Director, Canadian Shooting Sports Association
Wendy Cukier  President, Coalition for Gun Control

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

I have just over a minute.

Right when you were finishing up, you said there was something else you wanted to raise. I was wondering if I gave you that minute....

12:20 p.m.

President, Coalition for Gun Control

Wendy Cukier

The AR-15 was prohibited in the United States under the U.S. assault weapons ban. The only reason it didn't make it to the prohibited list was that there was advocacy by the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association, which wanted to be able to use it for target shooting.

I did a report on this. It's 10 years old now, but if you look at most industrialized countries, they do not let civilians have the AR-15 because it's generally recognized as having enough characteristics of military weapons that most countries don't let civilians own them at all.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Okay. Thank you for that.

The last piece is that on previous panels concern has been raised about the RCMP handling the classification of firearms. I was wondering if you had a position.

This bill would remove the Governor in Council being able to intervene with RCMP decisions.

12:20 p.m.

President, Coalition for Gun Control

Wendy Cukier

The intention with the classification of firearms and restrictive and prohibited weapons was very clear. It said that the orders in council could be used to prohibit weapons not reasonably used for hunting. I remember a member of Parliament saying that they needed a large-capacity magazine and a semi-automatic AK-47 because they were not a very good shot and there were gophers in their orchard. It's on the record.

I think we have to strike a balance. I think people recognize the risks associated with military weapons. Eighty per cent of Canadians want them banned completely, and sixty per cent want a ban on handguns. We have to look at utility and risk. The average farmer does not need an assault weapon or a handgun.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin.

Mr. Motz.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Thank you, Chair.

We heard at a gangs and guns summit that the Minister of Public Safety put on in March, hosted here in Ottawa, that the top issues were gangs, organized crime, and, to a lesser extent, people making what they call straw purchases, in which someone with a legitimate PAL will buy firearms and then give them or sell them to the criminal element.

In your opinion, what are the root causes of the gun issues, the gun violence, that we have in Canada?

12:20 p.m.

President, Coalition for Gun Control

Wendy Cukier

As I said at the outset, when I talk about gun violence, I use the World Health Organization's definition of gun violence, so that doesn't restrict it to urban gang violence. It includes domestic violence. It includes suicide. It includes political violence.

I think if you recognize that gun violence includes all of those things and you take a public health perspective, you have to look at root causes. For root causes of gang violence, there's lots of research that talks about the impact of disparity and lack of social capital and age and drugs and, and, and.... We know that.

We know that when it comes to suicide, there is a whole set of risk factors.

When it comes to domestic violence, there are others, as there are with political violence.

We would not say for a moment that gun control is a panacea. Those factors have to be addressed. We also know from the research—and this is pretty universal—that when you restrict the availability of the instrument, i.e., the firearm, you reduce the chances that an assault will become a homicide.

I've read from the B.C. Task Force on Illegal Firearms, which feels that controls over the sales of firearms are absolutely fundamental to stemming the flow of legal guns to illegal markets, because every illegal gun started as a legal gun either in Canada or in the United States. It would be nice if we had a wall, but we don't, so the flow of smuggled guns remains a problem.

We need to do everything that we can to prevent legal guns in Canada from being diverted. The ability to trace firearms by keeping records of sales is fundamental to reducing the flow. We also need better support for policing. We need support for victims of violence to reduce their revictimization and to break the cycle of violence.

There aren't easy solutions to complex problems like gang violence, but stricter controls over firearms are certainly an important part of them.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

In your opinion, does this bill address those complex issues? Obviously not, but does it do anything to deal with the gang and gun violence we have in this country? The increase in the homicides have been predominantly gang-, gun-, and drug-related. Does this bill deal with any of those issues?

12:25 p.m.

President, Coalition for Gun Control

Wendy Cukier

It increases the controls over the sales of unrestricted firearms. Remember, sawed-off shotguns start as shotguns. Remember, also, that we have seen lots of cases of the misuse of unrestricted firearms, because they are easy to get. Right now many cases are cited by the police and NWEST of the diversion of unrestricted firearms as well as restricted firearms. That's one measure.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

It doesn't take an expert in firearms to realize that this bill really targets licensed gun owners. It does nothing to deal with those who would acquire firearms illegally and use them for a criminal purpose.

12:25 p.m.

President, Coalition for Gun Control

Wendy Cukier

Most gun owners are law-abiding, but the problem is that some sell their guns illegally, some don't store them properly, and some use them to shoot people when they probably shouldn't.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Are you saying that PAL owners do that?

The statistics don't support that licensed gun owners are predominantly criminal.

12:25 p.m.

President, Coalition for Gun Control

Wendy Cukier

I didn't say “predominantly” at all. Sorry, maybe I misspoke. I said that most licensed gun owners are law-abiding. However, it only takes a small percentage of them who are not law-abiding to create problems. It's just like most youth are law-abiding, but a small percentage of them are not.

Part of the solution—just to say it one more time—to reducing different forms of gun violence is to prevent the misuse of guns by legal owners as well as to prevent the diversion of legal guns to illegal markets. I've published on this.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Having said that, does this bill do that?

12:25 p.m.

President, Coalition for Gun Control

Wendy Cukier

Yes, it does, because it reintroduces the controls on sales that were eliminated.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

By your own testimony, then, you feel that this is the stepping stone for a registry.

12:25 p.m.

President, Coalition for Gun Control

Wendy Cukier

No, because we had—

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Then, how do you control them?

12:25 p.m.

President, Coalition for Gun Control

Wendy Cukier

We had legislation that was introduced by Pierre Elliott Trudeau in 1977, and I've included it because I undertook an archeological exercise.

That legislation said, “Every person who carries on a business that includes the manufacturing, buying or selling at wholesale or retail, importing...keep records of transactions entered into by him”—because there was no gender neutrality then—“with respect to such weapons or firearms in a form prescribed by the Commissioner....”

That was 1977. The registry was introduced in 1995. It's dishonest to suggest that this is a registry. This is controls on the sales of firearms that are in place in the United States and most industrialized countries, and we're asking for them to be reinstated.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

You recall with C-42 under the previous Conservative government—as I mentioned earlier to a previous witness—that those who were convicted of domestic violence were prohibited from acquiring a firearm and their firearms were seized. In your testimony, if I heard you correctly—and I just skimmed some of your material—do you think it would be of value if we expand that to those who have been convicted of other violent crimes besides domestic-assault-related?

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

That's an important question. Unfortunately, Mr. Motz has left you no time to answer it, so I'll leave it to you to work it back in. I suspect it will be more than a “yes” or “no”.

Mr. Dubé, you have seven minutes, please.

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

Thank you for taking the time today.

At the risk of perhaps continuing that archeological exercise when it comes to that legislation, my understanding is that it was repealed in 1998—if I'm not mistaken—to make way for—

12:30 p.m.

President, Coalition for Gun Control

Wendy Cukier

It was 1995.

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

It was 1995. You mentioned that in the previous Parliament when the legislation was adopted limiting the long-gun registry, witnesses were calling for the reinstatement of this type of shopkeeper record-keeping, in other words.

12:30 p.m.

President, Coalition for Gun Control

Wendy Cukier

Yes.

In fact, it was interesting, because the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police pleaded with the government to reinstate some measures to address the gaps that were created by that legislation. Rick Hanson, who was the chief of police in Calgary, specifically said on the record that he did not support the registry and asked that they reinstate the 1977 legislation and give police access to the records. That's in Hansard, and I'm happy to provide it to anyone in the room

There is no way, except in conspiratorial minds, that you can say reinstating what was in place in 1977 is a registry. The registry was in 1995. Prior to that, we had point-of-sale controls. We did not require individual gun owners to have a piece of paper. That was the registry. When we required individual gun owners to have a piece of paper saying they own this gun, that was the registry. That's what we got rid of with respect to unrestricted firearms.

To suggest that this is equivalent to requiring gun dealers to keep records that the police have access to, which is the case in the United States of America, and was the case in Canada as of 1977, is disingenuous in my view.