Evidence of meeting #117 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nations.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Allan Martin  President, Firearms Instructors Association Canada
Hugh Nielsen  Master Instructor, North Island and Sunshine Coast Regional Director, Firearms Instructors Association Canada
Heather Bear  Vice-Chief, Saskatchewan Region, Assembly of First Nations
Matt DeMille  Manager, Fish and Wildlife Services, Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
John Hipwell  Past President, Wolverine Supplies
Matthew Hipwell  Owner, Wolverine Supplies

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Ladies and gentlemen, can I ask you to take your seats, please?

I apologize to our witnesses for the interruption, but as our clerk has explained, we had a bunch of votes that had to take place. As a consequence, we've now shifted everything scheduled from 11 to one o'clock to 12 to two o'clock. Two o'clock is a hard stop. Unless colleagues have any wild objections, I propose to stay with our normal questioning slots.

I see that we have our video conference witnesses with us this time. Because technology is a fickle thing—I was going to say mistress, but I'd better not say that.

12:10 p.m.

A voice

That's a good idea.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I propose that we go with our video conference witnesses first. I am conscious of the Hipwells' desire to make it to the airport, but I think we're good to make it to the airport.

Unless the video conference witnesses have any particular objection, I'm going to go with the order in which you're listed, which is the Firearms Instructors Association Canada first, with Mr. Martin and Mr. Nielsen, followed by Heather Bear, vice-chair, Saskatchewan Region, Assembly of First Nations.

With that, we'll hear from either Mr. Martin or Mr. Nielsen.

12:10 p.m.

Allan Martin President, Firearms Instructors Association Canada

Good morning. My name is Allan Martin, and I want to thank you for welcoming me. I hope I can be a good addition to your information today.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Do you have a prepared statement for 10 minutes? If not, that's fine. I just didn't know if you did or not.

12:10 p.m.

Hugh Nielsen Master Instructor, North Island and Sunshine Coast Regional Director, Firearms Instructors Association Canada

From me or from Allan?

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

From either one of you, but the total is 10 minutes.

12:10 p.m.

Master Instructor, North Island and Sunshine Coast Regional Director, Firearms Instructors Association Canada

Hugh Nielsen

Okay. I'll go first. We'll do our 10-minute statement now.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you.

12:10 p.m.

Master Instructor, North Island and Sunshine Coast Regional Director, Firearms Instructors Association Canada

Hugh Nielsen

I'll take five, and then Allan will take five.

Who am I? My name is Hugh Sidney Nielsen. I belong to the Lower Mainland Métis Association. I was raised in northern Ontario. I am ex-military and was in mining most of my life. With vast experience, I'm a master instructor for the Canadian firearms safety course program.

To make my statement easier, would those people on the committee who have a firearms licence or have taken a PAL course raise their hands? Does everyone hear me?

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Our witnesses have lots of PALs, but—

12:10 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

12:10 p.m.

Master Instructor, North Island and Sunshine Coast Regional Director, Firearms Instructors Association Canada

Hugh Nielsen

I'm talking about your people right in the committee itself.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

That's why I'm asking. Mr. Calkins has a PAL.

Mr. Motz, do you have one?

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

I've taken the firearms safety course.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

But you don't have a licence? Okay.

There are two.

12:10 p.m.

Master Instructor, North Island and Sunshine Coast Regional Director, Firearms Instructors Association Canada

Hugh Nielsen

Two, so I have to change my wording a little because there's a lot of information in the firearms safety course that, obviously, if you haven't taken the course, you're not aware of.

The instructors in Canada, we are the gateway for safety for firearms. Nobody even gets to the RCMP for a licence until they have gone through us. Our duties are instruction and making sure that the students are proficient and can pass the Canadian firearms safety course. Then they go to the RCMP and are vetted. The information that we give them is known across Canada as with all the instructors. There are a few things in different provinces where it seems that the different firearms officers have built little kingdoms across Canada, and they change it at will.

This new legislation is supposed to correct and make safe firearms owners and the general population in Canada. What has come out here, it's not targeting the problem. In terms of the statement that since 2013 crime has steadily gone up, 2013 was the safest year in Canada since the sixties. Yes, there are people who have actually come in and created problems, but this legislation does not attack those. I use the word “attack”. It will hit the rural farmer who has to use a firearm. It will hit the first nations who are trying to make a living in remote areas with that firearm, which is a tool for survival. It will hit the ordinary target shooter, but I do not see anybody from the gangs in Abbotsford or Surrey coming through our courses to take the PAL. There are actually incidences where the PAL has been counterfeited in Courtenay. I can't speak any more to that because it's in the RCMP's hands.

In terms of the information that was brought together for this proposal here, this legislation, you do have the people out there. You have the field officers, the people out in front. You have the firearms officers, and you have the conservation officers, who actually, in their duties, encounter more people with firearms than the average person because they're out working with hunters and so on. You have to have input from officers in the field for any of this to succeed. I think, having seen the people I've run through this course across British Columbia, this course should be mandatory for all enforcement personnel.

I do a lot of papers for the RCMP for different students, and I get very good reviews, such as, “We should have taken this when we took our Depot”. This is where I think it would be a big step up.

There should be an addition to the course, too, to include a protocol for when one is approached by the government officials: a firearms officer, conservation officer, RCMP. To the person in our class, we should be able to say that this is what you do, because they do have a firearm in their possession. For the safety of both them and the raw recruit who just came out of Regina, who probably hasn't seen some of these firearms, these are some of the things I want to work on.

The last thing for me is first nations and firearms. I don't know what's happening across Canada—

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Excuse me, Mr. Nielsen. I appreciate that you still want to get to your last point, and that's perfectly fine, but I just want to make sure that you know that at this point you have three minutes left to share between you and Mr. Martin.

12:15 p.m.

Master Instructor, North Island and Sunshine Coast Regional Director, Firearms Instructors Association Canada

Hugh Nielsen

Thank you very much. I will cut off and hand over to Mr. Martin. Thank you.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Okay. Thank you.

12:15 p.m.

President, Firearms Instructors Association Canada

Allan Martin

Thank you for the opportunity.

Basically, I would like to remind the committee of the stats on homicide: 0.2% per 100,000 people is the homicide rate in Canada. This is StatsCan talking. That narrows the impact of why you're proposing this law. The law itself affects the public and you're providing public safety. Unfortunately, the public is not well informed about firearms.

Prohibited firearms compared with legal firearms in our testing in the Canadian firearms safety course...and indeed that's one of my credits. I was representing British Columbia and the Yukon territory in the rewrite of the text we use currently in Canada. There is no provision for questions on what constitutes the difference, for the public, between a non-restricted firearm—which is legal, a rifle or a shotgun—and a prohibited firearm. There's very little information to question the new students on.

We have approximately two million licences in Canada at this point in time. Those people go through the Canadian firearms safety course training, and you have the provision there to improve the questioning so that the general public is more aware of the differences in firearms. An assault rifle constitutes fear in the general public, yet an assault rifle in Canada is prohibited. This is a gun where the operator is able to change from a semi-automatic, which is a legal non-restricted firearm, to an automatic, which becomes a machine gun at the operator's discretion. If we look at President Clinton's 2004 law that prohibited these firearms, there is a legal description of assault rifles. I think we should bring that description forward and say that right now certain firearms are legal in Canada but assault rifles are not. We should make the general public, at least graduates of the Canadian firearms safety course, aware of that description.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Martin, and thank you, Mr. Nielsen.

We'll now hear from the Assembly of First Nations, Heather Bear, vice-chief. I will ask everyone to observe our time allocations.

Thank you.

12:20 p.m.

Vice-Chief Heather Bear Vice-Chief, Saskatchewan Region, Assembly of First Nations

Good morning.

First of all, to the committee, I'd like to say I'm happy to be here. I wish I didn't have to be here, but I'm greeting you from the beautiful, unceded and unsurrendered Treaty No. 6 territory in Saskatoon.

Bill C-71 is the subject of a great deal of controversy and commentary across Canada. First nations have a long history of using firearms in cultural activities in this country. In all legislative matters that may have the potential to impact aboriginal and treaty rights, the AFN continues to advocate and work with the governments to incorporate our perspectives into Canadian laws.

The key issues at stake in Bill C-71 are Canada's power to monitor the activities of gun owners, particularly extending their requirements for background checks; the imposition of restrictions on the transport of restricted and prohibited firearms; new record-keeping requirements for a retail business selling firearms; more power to the RCMP to classify firearms without ministerial oversight; and requiring private citizens to confirm the validity of the firearm licence of the recipient whenever a firearm is either sold or given away, in an effort to reduce gang and gun violence.

On these issues, first nations have expertise and hard experience to offer this committee, and also to the government and Canadians as a whole. While many first nations would agree that handguns, restricted firearms, and other weapons used by gangs should be taken off the streets, the core of this discussion is the balancing of federal laws and authorities with the perspectives of first nations and the aboriginal treaty rights affirmed under section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982. First nations as individuals and as nations will assert our fundamental cultural rights to hunt, fish, and trap. First nations have had a right to transmit their cultures to the future generations without outside interference.

With the promise to build on the nation-to-nation relationship with first nations by the Canadian government, opportunities to voice our concerns such as this are vital for not only the Canadian legal framework, but also for the country of Canada as a whole. Parliament needs to consider the impacts of this legislation on first nations at the earliest stages of the process. Bill C-71 has provisions that could adversely impact first nations' rights, and these provisions should be amended by this committee before the legislation proceeds to the next reading.

The proposed amendments to the Firearms Act raise serious constitutional concerns to first nations. Our first concern is that this bill does not incorporate or safeguard our aboriginal and treaty rights that might be impinged, such as our treaty right to hunt. Nowhere in this draft legislation does it state how the provisions of the bill will be implemented for first nations or on our reserves. It should be made clear that the first nations' hunting rights will be respected and that we won't need a transport certificate for any kind of hunting rifle, even those classified as restricted.

Our aboriginal and treaty rights are foundational and are affirmed in section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982. They take precedence over laws that apply generally to all Canadians. We ask Canada to protect our right to freely transport firearms on our territories and in the exercise of our hunting rights.

Our second concern is with the new transportation and transfer requirements for restricted and prohibited firearms. There are no guidelines for these new amendments and how they would apply to first nations. In particular, how would they apply to hunting purposes on first nations? Although most hunting rifles are currently not restricted, that could change under the classification system. These provisions will further affect the intergenerational transmission of our culture through the transfer of a firearm.

Future changes in the classification system could make currently non-restricted firearms become restricted. The RCMP has discretion to designate any particular firearm as restricted, prohibited, or non-restricted. On what basis will the RCMP make those decisions? Who will receive the classification to make sure that the hunting rifles remain unrestricted?

Concerning background checks, under the new rules, the entire life of a person who applies for a firearm licence will be examined, instead of just the past five years. First nations people are more likely to have criminal records due to systemic discrimination and other reasons I won't get into right now, but is it fair that a person could be denied a licence on the basis of a criminal offence committed 20 or 30 years ago? Does that really predict how likely he or she is to misuse a firearm today? Obviously we need to keep firearms out of the hands of dangerous criminals and people with serious mental illnesses, but why punish a person who made a mistake decades ago?

Canada says that Bill C-71 will reduce gang violence, but many gang members obtain guns illegally on the black market. The new rules affect law-abiding citizens and don't do anything to curb gang violence. The homicide rate in Canada for licensed gun owners is 0.6% per 100,000, which is one third the rate of the general population. Instead of placing unnecessary restrictions on the rights of licensed gun owners, Canada should do more to directly address gang violence. This means making sure first nations have the funding to operate their own police forces and that they are properly trained and equipped.

Bill C-71 brings in new firearms transportation laws, which will be an additional responsibility for first nations police services. Canada continues to designate our police services as non-essential and fails to provide enough funding under the first nations policing program. The first nations police agencies must provide a service equal to that of non-indigenous police services. This bill will further burden our police forces, and we will require more investment to uphold the enforcement requirements of this bill.

First nations police forces are also equipped with inferior weapons compared with gangs, and more training for certification of firearms used by other police forces must be made available to first nations police agencies. Currently, there are no provisions in the bill for increased funding for first nations police forces.

This bill proposes additional requirements for businesses to keep records of the sale of firearms and of purchasers. We have concerns around privacy provisions, which are not in this bill. In the event of a breach in security of these records, how will this legislation ensure the safety of confidential information? Records need to be kept for 20 years and are supposed to help authorities keep track of the sales and distribution of firearms. What about the rights of the people who purchase these weapons? Records should be kept in a locked, fireproof, and waterproof safe to which only the manager or owner of the business has access.

These are our concerns regarding this proposed legislation. We will continue to uphold first nations' rights and continue our long-standing traditions of hunting, trapping, and gathering on the lands we have tended for countless generations. Unfortunately, the process for developing this legislation did not meet the federal government's duty to consult and accommodate. We stand with the many other Canadians who are not willing to forfeit their fundamental rights and freedoms, and who are asking that this government engage in more careful crafting of this important piece of legislation. Canada must do better and more to meet its constitutional and treaty responsibilities to first nations.

I would like to thank this committee for its efforts to listen to first nations. We would like to continue to work with the Canadian government on this important issue, and are open to providing more insights on gun legislation.

I'd also like to add that the overall perspective is that first nations have exclusive jurisdiction to govern and regulate any activity over their lands and people, including the use and regulation of firearms, but I also want to speak about the cultural perspective as a mother and a grandmother. When you look at our young men—my son, my nephews, my grandchildren—it's a beautiful thing when they have that rite of passage and can have a gun. It generally comes as a gift.

[Witness speaks in Cree]

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I hope your clock is running the same as our clock.

12:30 p.m.

Vice-Chief, Saskatchewan Region, Assembly of First Nations

Vice-Chief Heather Bear

It's faster. I still had a minute to go.