Public Safety Committee on May 31st, 2018

[John Hipwell]

It's the access to fast, accurate records. We don't sell a firearm, of any class, or a box of ammunition out of our store without doing a PAL verification. Gail, the young lady who works for us, is responsible for that. She has a good rapport with the CFC. We do a check on everything.

Only recently—this week, in fact—in talking to a firearms officer, I was made aware that false PALs are a problem within the system. As a business, we've never been notified of that.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I'll go back to where I was going to go, but that raises a good point. It has come up a couple of times now.

Would calling in to verify a licence then help to make sure you are not dealing with someone who has a false licence that they're presenting to you?

[John Hipwell]

Yes. We currently do that.

That's all a retail customer needs to do. They don't need to keep records. They need to call in. It's a simple question: is it valid or not? It's like using a credit card in a store. If your credit card is declined, you're not told why it's declined. The merchant doesn't know why. It's just not valid, end of story. That's all we need to know.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

That's perfect. That helps me.

I want to go back to an issue that's come up in correspondence from the mayor of the City of Toronto. It came up again with the police a bit, so I'm trying to flag it. How is there a way that there can be red flags for people who seem to be purchasing an inordinate amount of firearms and there's a concern that they may be diverting them to the illegal market?

For example, I was looking at an article in the Toronto Star from a couple of years ago, and there had been someone arrested and charged with diverting into the illegal market, but who did have a licence. They had purchased 23 handguns during a 22-month period, including 15 from one store.

You're on the front line of being able to help us. What would be a way that we could find the proper systems to flag that?

[John Hipwell]

I guess you could purchase 100 guns from one store, or you could purchase one gun from 100 stores. I'm not sure that I can give you an answer there.

There's a lack of trust between the authorities and the firearms businesses, and there are bad apples in every barrel. There have certainly been some businesses that have been closed down, and rightly so. I'm not sure how we can improve that exchange of information. We do have some firearms collectors, skilled professionals, doctors, surgeons, engineers, oil field workers. They spend thousands of dollars every year on this. To put a dollar value on it, I don't think would help either.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

No. It wasn't about a dollar value.

Mr. Hipwell, you just had your finger up. I don't know if there was something that you wanted to add. I'm trying to seek your assistance in trying to figure out what would be appropriate to get those flags because that is one of the concerns that has been raised. How do we get that?

[Matthew Hipwell]

It has me thinking of identifiers, markers, and how could you look at it, but I don't have an answer for you at this time.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

If you do get an answer, if something comes to your mind and you're able to send that in, that would be wonderful. I'd appreciate that.

You did mention that you keep records now, and that when you make a sale, you keep a record of that transaction. Is that correct?

One of the issues that just came up from the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters was the security of those records. Given that you have those records, do you feel confident in the security that you have in place right now for the business records containing personal information for your customers?

[John Hipwell]

On our premises, we store a huge number of firearms. I think their security is more important than the records. If the security is good enough for the firearms, I think it follows that our records are okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin.

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for Ms. Bear.

I agree with you regarding the ancestral rights and the rights and freedoms of the first nations. I also consider that honest hunters and sport shooters like myself should benefit from the same rights and freedoms.

My colleague, Mr. Motz, asked you some questions about the consultation. I want to confirm today that the first nations were not consulted at all.

On this topic, I would like to know whether you know how many aboriginal people have a firearms acquisition permit. We know that approximately 2 million Canadians currently hold one.

In your area, is it mandatory to have a permit? I believe the answer is yes. If that is the case, how many of them are there?

[Vice-Chief Heather Bear]

I know that many of the first nations in our region in Saskatchewan are occupying the field for several outfitters for, you know, permits. The chief and council will [Technical difficulty—Editor] so much permits, now weighing in with guns.... We're occupying the field and each nation is autonomous. There are 74 first nations in Saskatchewan. Each nation has the autonomy and authority to make laws in their communities for their people, by their people.

I believe there are over 30 outfitters—first nations that do outfitting—but that's just an extension of their hunting culture.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I understand that. In the final analysis, there is really no control. Each nation or reserve can manage the firearms as it sees fit. It isn't really necessary to obtain a firearms acquisition permit from the federal government.

Are there businesses on reserves that sell firearms, for instance Wolverine Supplies?

[Vice-Chief Heather Bear]

When it comes to the handling of guns, it's more of a customary practice. For example, you would be gifted a gun. Even traditionally, if someone were going to be a chief, it would be a gun in a blanket. Guns are handed down, just like in your family.

Like I say, the problem we have is the lack of respect from government to help us enforce those laws, but we do have customary practices when our elders gather. When the clan mothers say something, the men will enforce it.

If there's an issue regarding guns, they'll deal with it in a more communal way in many instances. I can't say overall, because we need to respect the true autonomy, jurisdiction, and authority that each first nation has. That's what we need to understand, and that treaty right to hunt is on and off reserve as well.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Bear.

Mr. DeMille, do you think that imposing more regulations on law-abiding hunters will reduce gun violence?

[Matt DeMille]

No, as we said, I think a lot of the proposals are really looking at things that can be done to licensed firearms owners, and adding additional restrictions on an already highly regulated system and group of people is not going to have that appreciable benefit that we're going to see with respect to violence. Therefore, we think there need to be more proposals targeted directly at that, and not indirectly, as some of these proposals are intending to do.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Indeed, the monitoring processes for the owners of legal firearms are very strict here, but do you think there are processes to identify those who own illegal firearms and take action against them?

Perhaps Mr. Nielsen could answer the question.

[Matt DeMille]

I don't really have any specific recommendations on how to do that.

I don't know, Brian, if you have anything you'd want to add. That's kind of outside of our wheelhouse.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Nielsen, did you understand my question?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have less than 10 seconds.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I'll need more time for the translation.

[Hugh Nielsen]

Yes, I did. I want to go back to work with Madam Bear on the first nations. I didn't get my point in there. The first nations have been really discriminated against since firearms were brought in.

Even in Ontario, I was a hunter instructor in 1968. The first nations have not had to have a licence to hunt. They have had their status cards, and therefore, there was no training. It goes today. There is still no training. However, every person in Canada who owns a firearm has to have a licence, and then they have to go through training. From a lot of the statements and questions from your members here, it's quite obvious that you haven't taken a firearms safety course, because all that stuff is in there. Social responsibility is a major problem.

I teach right from the Lower Post First Nation in the Yukon right through to anywhere. I teach on the coast for all first nations—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have to leave it there, Mr. Nielsen. We've gone well over the time, notwithstanding translation.

[Hugh Nielsen]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Mr. Fragiskatos, you have five minutes.