Public Safety Committee on June 5th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay.

(On clause 3)

With that, seeing that we have only 20 minutes left, the next item is CPC-10.

Who is speaking for Mr. Calkins?

Mr. Viersen.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

With this particular motion, I'm thinking especially of my constituent offices, located right across the street from Kodiak Lake firearms store. I see that Mr. Calkins also referenced the Canadian Sporting Arms and Ammunition Association.

The owner is Kevin. Some of these weird things happen because his business owns firearms, and he as an individual owns firearms. There are things that happen when the lines get a little blurry. On this particular bill, he came and had a chat with me. He said, “Arnold, always make sure that the business part is always put in place.”

I'm not 100% sure if this amendment is necessary—I can ask the officials we have here—but I think that we should be adding the word “business” so that it would say:

(9) An individual or business is eligible to hold a licence authorizing the possession of prohibited firearms of a prescribed class if the individual or business

I'm not exactly sure whether it's necessary or whether that's implied.

Would you like me to read it in?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Notwithstanding your youth, the rest of us can still read.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Okay, good. I was hearing on CBC that literacy rates are down in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Is that right? Not in my generation.

Mr. Spengemann, do you wish to have Mr. Viersen ask the officials, or do you wish to debate first?

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

If I can come in briefly, Mr. Chair, I'd appreciate it. I think Mr. Viersen raised the very question that I'd like to answer. Basically, grandfathering, as it's currently framed in firearms legislation, applies to individuals. Businesses can apply for licences with prohibited privileges for purposes prescribed in the firearms licences regulations. I believe, it's in section 22. There is a regime in place for businesses, and businesses have until the end of June of this month to consider what to do with an inventory under those regulations.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Viersen.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

One of the problems is that some of these businesses aren't buying and selling firearms; they're collecting them. Would they have to dispose of them? That becomes the issue. That's where I think we need to ensure that businesses have a right to the grandfather clause, as well.

I would love to ask the officials about this.

[Randall Koops]

I would just point out that clause 2 as drafted deals only with eligibility for grandfathering for individuals. As your colleague pointed out, the regime for businesses is separate and is dealt with under the firearms licences regulations, in section 22. It's a separate regime for businesses, and it's not dealt with in the amendments proposed through clause 2 in Bill C-71.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Does that separate regime allow for a business to continue to own a now-prohibited firearm? That's what we're getting at here.

[Rob O'Reilly]

The business licence regulations would allow a business, assuming they have a prescribed purpose, to possess prohibited firearms and to have those firearms in their inventory. However, it would not allow them to be eligible to make application under Bill C-71 to have the at-fault firearms themselves grandfathered.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

I didn't quite understand that.

[Rob O'Reilly]

There are a number of firearms businesses that have certain conditions on their business licence that allow them to be in possession of prohibited firearms for the purposes of their business, whether or not it is for sale to a prop house or to sell to law enforcement, for that matter. Businesses already have certain provisions that would allow them to be in possession of prohibited firearms.

I guess Randall's point was that section 22 of the firearms licences regulations already allows for businesses to have prohibited firearms in their inventory if there is a legitimate purpose to having them.

Bill C-71, however, really only speaks to the grandfathering of the firearms and the individuals in question, so I think they're two different issues.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

It would be redundant if we put in the business at this point.

[Rob O'Reilly]

I don't think it's a question so much of redundancy, but rather that we're almost talking about two different things.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

With that answer, do you wish to withdraw the amendment?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

No, because I think it needs to be in there. That's an important part. Businesses need to be able to be grandfathered as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Motz.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I suppose I have a couple of questions.

Given your last comment, I'm not a legal expert, obviously, but an individual who owns a gun shop technically doesn't own the prohibited weapons in that gun shop. The gun shop does. That's a separate entity. That's what my colleague was trying to get at. There needs to be some separation.

I think Mr. Koops made the comment that, or you did Mr. O'Reilly—I don't know who was speaking—that firearms shops, gun shops, would have to come into compliance with this if they are in possession of anything by the end of this month, June 30.

What happens if the passing of this bill goes past June 30? Where does that leave a gun shop? Will there be notice?

It begs the question. If I'm a gun shop owner and I have these what will become illegal firearms, do I get compensated now because I have to have them destroyed?

How does that all work?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. O'Reilly.

[Rob O'Reilly]

I can't speak to all the legalities of it. Post-June 30, as the legislation is currently written, for a firearms business that would still be in possession of these firearms, the firearms would be deemed to be prohibited. The businesses themselves, if they wish to retain them in their inventory, would have to have the prescribed purpose of the prohibited firearms on their firearms licence. They wouldn't necessarily have to destroy them, assuming they have the prescribed purpose under the firearms licence regulations to continue to possess them.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Then they have to destroy them. If, in the rare circumstance, they would not have that prescribed prohibited licence capacity, then they would have to destroy them.

So, my question again is twofold. One, are they going to be compensated for that destruction when it happens? Two, what happens if this bill is not enacted by June 30 and it doesn't come into force and effect? I think it was Mr. Koops, or somebody else who just said they have until June 30 of this year—25 days—to deal with this inventory.

This hasn't even come back to the House yet.

[Randall Koops]

My justice colleagues have just reminded me as well that it might be helpful to bring to your attention section 11 of the Firearms Act. Under the provision of special cases it also deals with prohibited firearms, weapons, devices, and ammunition for businesses. There are, as Rob mentioned, prescribed purposes in subsection 11(2), that “A business other than a carrier is eligible to hold a licence authorizing the business to possess prohibited firearms, prohibited weapons, prohibited devices or prohibited ammunition if the business needs to possess them for a prescribed purpose.”

That section is not opened up by Bill C-71, but it precedes section 12 on “Prohibited firearms—individuals”.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Are you satisfied with that answer, Mr. Motz?

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Well, it's a part answer. I still don't have any determination of whether there is any compensation.