Evidence of meeting #121 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Yes, I would be more than happy to do that, absolutely.

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

Fantastic.

My last question has been answered a little with regard to some of the economic downturn. Is there anything else that you're seeing in terms of factors that might be explaining, in particular, the increase in property crime and things like that?

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Glen touched on this earlier. I do think this issue around increased organized crime and gang activity in rural communities is an important factor for your committee to assess from the perspective of addicts who are committing repeated crimes, but also from the perspective of increased dealing and trading.

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

If I could just jump in really quickly—sorry to cut you off but I think my time is just about done—we tend to think of remote communities as being up north, but there's also proximity to the border as well. Is this something that has come up in the context of talking about organized crime and things like that, or even human trafficking, like Pam brought up?

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Yes, it has, in initial research. I think there is probably an issue that you can investigate related to cross-border trafficking and dealing, yes.

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

Proximity to the border, great, thanks.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Dubé.

Mr. Fragiskatos, you have seven minutes.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much for undertaking this. I think there has been a debate in some circles about what the primary role of a state should be. I think that those who have made the case that the state's fundamental responsibility is to ensure the security and safety of citizens have it on the mark. This is a study that would obviously delve into that.

I want to ask you about numbers, though, because evidence has to really be the foundation of what we do here, in terms of public policy, but also this study.

You talked about the increase in the crime rate from 2015 to 2016, the year for which Statistics Canada has the most recent data available. Could you go over that?

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Statistics Canada said that 2015 was the first year in 12 years that there was an increase in police-reported crime across Canada. Their analysis showed that the most widespread increases were, as a region, in western Canada. That was led by a 10% increase in rural Alberta, and the majority of those crimes were property crimes: thefts, vandalism, and robberies.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

In fact, from 2006 to 2016, there was a deep decrease across Canada of 28% in the crime rate, and from 1991 to 2016 there was a 50% decrease in the crime rate.

This does not take away from the substance of what you're doing. Obviously you've done a lot of work with stakeholders, and there have been plenty of reports looking at the worries and concerns that exist in rural Canada, particularly in the west, on these issues, but the numbers are where they are.

Have you looked at, either in your stakeholder engagement or any of your own analysis, the crime severity index that is held by Statistics Canada?

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Yes. It is the crime severity index that also increased, and I think I addressed that in my opening comments, and—

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

The crime severity index basically measures the volume of crime and the relative seriousness of crime, let's say homicide compared to petty theft, like bicycle theft. In fact, criminologists have made the case, and others who study crime outside of the academic realm have made the case, that this a measure that should be taken perhaps even more seriously than the crime rate, which measures all crime, whether it's, to use that example again, bicycle theft versus homicide.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Yes.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

As far as the crime severity index goes, in Alberta between 2006 and 2016 there was a 12% decrease in crime severity. From 2006 to 2016, in Manitoba, there was a 27% decrease in crime severity, and in Saskatchewan there was a 13% decrease. Now you might say that this has something to do with this index just looking at rates in cities in those provinces, but the Western Producer magazine said, “rural crime rates (per 100,000 people) are roughly constant”. However, it does acknowledge that property theft is up.

When you're telling the committee that we should look at these issues, are you recommending that we look at instances like property crime that appear to be on the increase? The other crimes, particularly the severe crimes, are on the decrease; there's no question about that.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Yes, I think it is clear that it is primarily property crimes, such as, robberies, vandalism, and thefts, that are the majority of increases—

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Yes.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

—but there has been increasing violence related to those.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Violence has taken place, there's no question.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Yes, armed robbery.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

I'm talking about measures on the whole, statistics on the whole, over long durations of time.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Yes, I think getting clarity on all of these issues is exactly why the committee should do this.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

You're talking motor vehicle thefts, thefts of under $5,000, breaking and entering, that type of thing. I just wanted clarity on that.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

Yes, and, Peter, I just wanted to mention in terms of current numbers, because you're right, some of them are sort of back....

According to Maclean's 2018 list of Canada's most dangerous places, seven of the top 10 places with the highest violent crime rates are in rural areas with populations of 25,000 or less. I just wanted to mention that. It also links to what I said in response to Matt. As your committee moves forward with the analysis, just be mindful of the population density and distribution over geography that you're assessing.

June 12th, 2018 / 12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

I look forward to delving into those details. I'm just going on what Statistics Canada has collected in terms of raw data.

I wonder to what extent matters of personal responsibility are also at play here. Again, I'll quote from the Western Producer magazine. It says on this specific issue:

Security, not confrontation, is the best response. Driveway alert systems, cameras, motion detector lights, even sirens are viable measures. Some can be adopted for grain bins and shop doors. Systems can be linked to smartphones for live viewing.

Yes, it focuses on personal responsibility, but also, with the advances in technology that we're seeing, as far as rural folks are concerned, how much of a help can this be? I mean this in terms of dealing with things like petty thefts, property thefts, and the like, and making sure that we look at these issues in our study too.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Shannon Stubbs Conservative Lakeland, AB

I think that's important, and I would say that rural Canadians are well known for their self-sufficiency and taking initiative. I have countless constituents who have invested thousands of dollars—