Evidence of meeting #121 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

June 12th, 2018 / 11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Colleagues, it’s 11 o’clock, and I see quorum.

Our first witness is Alan Rayes.

Mr. Rayes, welcome to the committee.

You have 10 minutes for your presentation. The members of the committee will then be able to ask you questions.

11 a.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, members of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

I am very proud to appear before you to present Motion M-124, which I had the opportunity and the privilege to introduce and debate in the House of Commons on November 9, 2017. It was put to a vote on January 29, 2018, and adopted unanimously on January 31, 2018. I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the members of the House of Commons, both those in the government and in the opposition parties, for supporting this motion.

Today, I am asking you to undertake a study to determine the feasibility of equipping emergency vehicles across Canada with automated external defibrillators (AEDs) and to ensure that the necessary measures be taken following discussions with the other levels of government, the municipalities and organizations concerned, with due regard for their respective jurisdictions.

Every year, there are some 40,000 sudden cardiac arrests. When such events take place, every second counts. For every minute that passes, a cardiac arrest victim's chances of survival decrease by 7 to 10%. In 85% of cases, cardiac arrest occurs outside hospital, usually in private residences, with no AED nearby.

That, unfortunately, was what happened to Michel Picard, a resident of Victoriaville in my constituency. On December 30, 2017, Mr. Picard collapsed at his home, in front of his family, without warning. He had suffered a life-threatening arrhythmia. Happily, emergency services were contacted immediately. During the six minutes it took emergency services to get there, Mr. Picard's son-in-law, Steve Houle, administered first aid in the form of external cardiac massage. This procedure increased the victim's chances of survival until the paramedics arrived with a defibrillator and administered three shocks. Fortunately, Mr. Picard regained consciousness and is today considered a miraculous survivor since he has no lasting effects from the incident. This outcome was made possible by the rapid response of paramedics.

In a cardiac arrest, external cardiac massage helps keep blood and oxygen circulating in the victim's body. However, a person cannot be resuscitated with cardiac massage alone; a defibrillator is essential to stop the arrhythmia and allow the heart to return to its normal state.

AEDs increase the chances of survival by 75%. That is why it is so important to have access to a defibrillator.

What would have happened to Mr. Picard if the first responders had been firefighters or police officers who do not have AEDs in their vehicles?

Regrettably, less than 5% of people who suffer a heart attack outside hospital survive. In an emergency, police officers or firefighters are often first on the scene, because of their proximity, even before paramedics. They are trained to administer first aid until paramedics arrive. If their vehicles were all equipped with AEDs, response time would be much shorter, and more lives would be saved.

In Quebec, some effort is being made in this area. The Sûreté du Québec has implemented a pilot project to put AEDs in all of its vehicles. There are also AEDs in some fire trucks and some public places. In fact, that saved the life of my friend Stéphane Campagna. While playing hockey with some friends in Victoriaville, he suffered a cardiac arrest in the arena. Fortunately, thanks to the contribution of some proactive business people, there was an AED in the arena. Thanks to that device and the cool-headedness of Marcel Duquette, Jean-François Gagné and Francis Garneau, Stéphane was resuscitated. The three men raced over to assist him and saved his life with the defibrillator, which was close at hand.

A number of police services have AEDs in their vehicles. Unfortunately, coverage is not uniform and comprehensive. Some areas still have not started making these life-saving devices available.

When I was mayor of Victoriaville, my team and I made sure, given what happened to my friend Stéphane, that every municipal building, sports facility and emergency response vehicle was equipped with a defibrillator. Furthermore, during the Souper du maire, a call went out to the people of the business community to ask them to purchase these devices themselves. In the two or three weeks that followed, more than a hundred businesses had gotten defibrillators.

The AED is an essential device for saving lives. Like most citizens, I want to know that my children, my family, my friends and all of our fellow citizens are safe, no matter where there are. I want to know that even if they are farther from a hospital, they are safe because emergency vehicles and public places are equipped with AEDs. All Canadians deserve the same chance, the same level of safety, no matter where they decide to live, in the city or in the country. Every person should have an equal chance of survival, and no one should be penalized for the location they chose to raise their family.

Someone suffers a heart attack every 12 minutes. It is a fact that the farther that person is from a hospital, the lower his or her chances of survival are. Why is that? Because the chances of survival are just about zero when a cardiac arrest victim gets to hospital; it is already too late. For the victim to have a better chance of survival, without aftereffects, an AED must be used as soon as possible.

As I stated previously, for every minute that passes, the chances of survival are 7% to 10% lower. We have no more than 10 minutes to save the victim, hence the urgent need to equip all emergency vehicles in Canada with defibrillators.

Fortunately, AEDs are easy to use. No training is needed to use one. Every AED has an on-board feature that describes each step in its operation, and the device decides on the strength of the shock to be administered. It is impossible to injure someone by mistake with a defibrillator, since only a person in cardiac arrest will receive a shock.

So, in my view, only one conclusion is possible: Having more AEDs available will save more lives every year. We can substantially increase the number of survivors by equipping emergency vehicles with AEDs.

The concern that many people have about equipping every emergency vehicle with an AED is, of course, the cost. But that small device is less expensive than you might think. On average, an AED costs between $1,000 and $2,000. That is a pittance in comparison with the value of the lives saved.

There is no doubt in my mind that AEDs are absolutely necessary to save the lives of our fellow citizens. AEDs clearly have a very important role to play in helping people survive a heart attack. They can save hundreds or even thousands of lives every year. That is a statistic we cannot ignore.

I am confident that with your study and the recommendations it will produce, the outcome will be positive. More Canadians will be able to live safely and with peace of mind; more first responders will be able to take concrete action in the event of a cardiac arrest; and of course, more lives will be saved every year. This is a concrete solution that can help increase people's chances of survival.

Consequently, I am asking you specifically to include not just RCMP vehicles but all emergency vehicles in the study.

I hope that we will be able to save lives by carrying out this study. That is my profound hope, and I offer you my full support.

Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Rayes.

The first question goes to Mr. Fragiskatos.

You have seven minutes.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Mr. Rayes, thank you for your work on this very important issue.

I will be asking my questions in English.

You mentioned that when you were mayor, a defibrillator saved the life of one of your friends in a public place, but many cardiac events happen in people's homes. Can you expand on the importance of ensuring that all emergency vehicles have a defibrillator?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Excuse me, can you repeat the question, while I fix the device?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

You mentioned that when you were mayor, a defibrillator saved the life of one of your friends in a public place, but many cardiac events happen in people's homes. Can you expand on the importance of ensuring that all emergency vehicles have a defibrillator?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Equipping all emergency vehicles with defibrillators is important, simply because, in many places, the paramedics aren't the first ones to arrive on the scene in situations of cardiac arrest. In my friend's case, there was a defibrillator in the arena. However, we can assume that police officers are often the first to arrive on the scene when people are located slightly further away from hospitals or from the paramedics' stations, for example, in the countryside.

If we made an effort to study how we could support all the safety agencies across Canada, we could save more lives. Furthermore, I even think that it would be timely to ask ourselves if we should include volunteer groups. Some communities call on volunteers to respond to emergencies. Take indigenous peoples and First Nations, for example. I didn't check, but I'm not sure that all of their vehicles are equipped with defibrillators. We could do something to that end.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

I think when many people hear about defibrillators and try to picture them, they think back to the 1990s or 2000s—whether they've seen them on news reports or television shows or whatever the case might be— and it's some big thing attached to a wall. They're now the size of a first aid kit. I'm looking at a Heart and Stroke Foundation pamphlet that shows a very basic picture of a defibrillator, yes, on a wall, but it's a decent size. It's manageable.

Is this the size of a defibrillator you're thinking could go into an emergency vehicle?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Yes. you can have that type of device, but, because the technology has advanced, there are now devices that are much smaller. Some are also portable. I even know someone who bought one for himself and keeps it in his car or in his house. Given the current competition in manufacturing the products, a device of that kind costs about $1,000. The device is not very big and it can be easily carried around by anyone who wants to buy one. It measures about 1 foot by 1 foot. It looks like the devices that usually hang on walls.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

I apologize if you mentioned it in your presentation, but I wonder if you could touch on a comparison. What is the survival rate when a defibrillator is used, as opposed to when it's not? How critical is that difference?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

It is not complicated: without a defibrillator nearby, if you are not in a hospital, or somewhere with a defibrillator, such as a municipal or government building, your chances of survival are practically nil.

Even when there is a defibrillator in a building, the problem is knowing where it is. That is quite the challenge. When I was mayor, we had a situation just like that. After installing the defibrillators, we had to put signage in place to make sure that they were readily accessible. For example, if someone had a heart attack in the committee room we are now in, I am not even sure if I would know where to find a defibrillator so that I could respond quickly and come to the assistance of the person in distress. That is an additional challenge that we will also have to address.

In the motion I am tabling today, the priority is to equip all the vehicles we have. It is very simple: the chances of survival go down 10% per minute. You can look at the statistics to see the average time taken for an ambulance to get to the scene of an incident. I am not sure of the exact figure, but if the average is six minutes, it means that the person has a 40% chance of survival left. The longer it takes, the more permanent the consequences are likely to be.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

It sounds like the difference is significant, even when taking hospital treatment into account.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Yes, exactly. It is more than significant. It is a question of survival for a lot of people.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

My final question looks at the example that could be set here. What could happen if defibrillators are put in emergency vehicles, and how could private businesses or other institutions respond—or have responded—in examples that you might know about?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

For the most part, first responders are already trained. They are professionals, so would they need a little extra training? In my opinion, it could be quite quick.

I can tell you that, from my own personal experience, it is quite a simple exercise. We even established first responder training for people with a handicap or a challenge. A 10-year-old child can go through the drill; you just have to take the device, open it and put it on the patient's chest. The device gives you all the information you need and tells you what to do.

I invite you to ask someone to come to give you a demonstration. It would be a very good idea for an expert to come and show committee members how the device works. You would see that it is something quite simple.

Before anyone asks, I have calculated how much it would cost. According to my data, which perhaps are not the most up-to-date, it would cost $8 million at most to equip all emergency vehicles and finish the work started by a number of services across the country. When I look at the budget of the federal government, I do not consider that to be an astronomical expense.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Fragiskatos Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you once more.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have seven minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Rayes, thank you for introducing this motion. It is a pleasure to have you at our committee this morning.

We have a document prepared by the Library of Parliament that examines automated external defibrillators from a number of angles. I would like to give the motion proper consideration.

First, we see that the situation is not uniform all across Canada. According to the first part of the motion, the RCMP does not seem to be equipped with defibrillators, at least not in all its vehicles.

I would like to know if that corresponds to the information you have. Let's start with that question.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Yes, exactly.

I would not say that the RCMP has not started the process. According to my data, some divisions in some areas, in British Columbia, for example, have already begun to equip their vehicles with defibrillators. The same goes for the Sûreté du Québec. I can also tell you that a number of municipal forces have begun the process.

I assume that, if everyone had not begun the process in 2018, it must have been for budgetary reasons. Today, I do not see why all emergency vehicles have not been equipped with defibrillators. This shows how important it is for your committee to conduct a little more exhaustive study of the situation, to do the necessary assessments, and then to submit its recommendations.

I must emphasize one thing in regard to this motion. I have separated it into two distinct stages, because I really wanted it to be passed. I feel that jurisdictions have to be respected, but, once the analysis is done, nothing is preventing the government from coming to an agreement with the provinces, the territories, the First Nations and the municipalities to determine the best way to provide the necessary financial resources, if that is the obstacle in the way of the project.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

At the moment, your intention really is that it be uniform in all the police forces in Canada, starting with the RCMP. Then, in full observance of the Constitution, each province should be able to comply with some form of federal guideline for all police vehicles in Canada, from the municipal level to the highest level, to be equipped with these defibrillators.

Is that your goal?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Yes. I even go further. I must point out that my motion is not simply about the police, but about all emergency vehicles. I feel that firefighters should be included. It might even be worthwhile to look at volunteer emergency vehicles. We know that some communities have an emergency system that relies on volunteers. If we do this exercise, we could increase manyfold the number of people who could provide first aid when unfortunate incidents occur.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Basically, part (b) of your motion is intended to establish the framework for the study you are asking the committee to undertake. We have some information at the moment, but we see that it is probably necessary to determine how far the concept of first responder goes. The legislation already has a definition of a first responder. However, from a federal point of view, your intention, as expressed in part (b) of the motion, is that, in our study, we should establish a framework and determine to which level the legislation should go. Is that what you mean?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Exactly.

Basically, it would not be right for me to make a motion that involves all other jurisdictions. So, for this motion, I focused on the RCMP. I have to tell you that Ralph Goodale, the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, introduced a similar project in 2013. I used it as a model, but I did not want to limit myself to the RCMP.

I come from Quebec, as you know. In Quebec, we do not have RCMP officers, but we have other police forces. In my view, the exercise must be done for all Canadians. We represent all Canadians, in all parts of the country. It would not be right for me to have introduced a motion asking the committee to do work and come up with recommendations that left part of Canada's population unassisted.

I defer to you to recommend the best way for the government to go about starting the procedure as quickly as possible. I hope that it can be done in the next budget year.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

I would like to talk about the information that you currently have on the training.

As you said earlier, it seems relatively simple to use a defibrillator. Basically, are the police trained to use defibrillators quickly, either at police college or during additional training sessions? In your opinion, does training of that kind exist? if not, do you think that it is anything complicated?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

I’m sure they have all taken first aid courses. Today, everyone in the police force must have basic training.

Some people may have fears. In fact, I had some myself when defibrillators were installed in our municipality. Some people are afraid to use the device, even if they are told that they just have to follow the instructions. It can be a disturbing situation for many people when something like that happens.

Having said that, I think basic training is given to police officers.