Public Safety Committee on Sept. 25th, 2018

[Bill Blair]

I would rely on my experience as a police officer and a police chief in dealing with that in the largest urban centre in Canada. I will tell you that when police officers attend intimate partner violence, domestic violence calls, one of the very first things they will inquire about is the presence of firearms in the home because the presence of firearms in a home where domestic violence and intimate partner violence is taking place exponentially increases the risk. It's one of the first inquiries there is. With existing authorities under the Criminal Code, where the police become aware of the existence of a firearm in a home, they have the authority to remove it.

I can also tell you, through many conversations with women who have been victims of domestic violence, that one of the things that so often happens is the woman will whisper to the police officer that there's a shotgun under the bed or a firearm in the closet. The psychological trauma associated with the presence of that firearm is devastating to that individual. I agree that the presence of a firearm in the home in a domestic violence situation increases the likelihood of death.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

I have about a minute left and I wanted to get you to clarify something. People crossing the border, are they irregular or are they illegal?

[Bill Blair]

I think the law is very clear. When someone comes across our border at an irregular point, that's unlawful. We actually have a sign up at these border points. If you go to Lacolle at the end of Roxham Road, you will see a sign there that says it's unlawful to come into the country there.

The actual stepping across the border is unlawful. But under Canadian convention and in Canadian law, when that individual makes a request to an official for asylum, their presence in the country ceases to become unlawful and they are entitled under international convention and Canadian law to a hearing of that application, so their presence is not unlawful from that point on. All of these individuals are first confronted by the RCMP. The RCMP advise them that they're not allowed to enter until they make that application. When they make that application, they're then subject to very vigorous security background checks to make sure there's no criminality. If there there is criminality, that's dealt with. If there's a national security threat, that's dealt with. But if they are making application for the protection of Canada, they are entitled to due process to determine their admissibility.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Damoff and Minister Blair.

Mr. Motz, five minutes please.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Minister, and officials for being here today.

Minister, you have frequently referred to the idea that somehow law-abiding gun owners in Toronto are responsible for gun crime in Toronto. Your government has gleefully pushed the idea that half of crime guns in Toronto were diverted from the lawful stream, yet in reality, there is no surge in crime guns that can be traced back to licensed gun owners in your city, none. In fact, evidence from your former police service, the Toronto Police Service, suggests domestically sourced guns are closer to 10%, not the 50% that you are continuing to purport and misleading the Canadian public with.

There is, however, a continuous flow of smuggled U.S. firearms and prohibited guns that you can't buy in Canada anyway. Interestingly, last week, you were quoted as saying evidence will guide my decisions, our decisions, something you repeated again yesterday in the House, Minister.

Minister, do you actually care that there is no evidence to support a plan, your plan, to stop law-abiding gun owners from owning handguns?

[Bill Blair]

Let me clarify a couple of things. First of all, when I speak of gun violence, I never do so gleefully. I consider it a tragedy in many of our communities.

I also think it's very important to avail ourselves of the best available evidence, and I will acknowledge to you that the data on the origin of guns is incomplete. I can share with you that during the 10 years that I was the chief of police in Toronto, I directed my investigators to make every effort to determine the origin of all crime guns that were seized. We had, for example, a member of the ATF, the alcohol, tobacco and firearms people, embedded in our firearms unit in Toronto who assisted us tremendously in tracing the origin of those guns. We were able to determine—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Fair enough, Minister.

However, these stats are recent. It drove the whole gun debate this past summer. It drove the entire ban this past summer.

[Bill Blair]

I'm referring to different stats.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Hold on, I'm asking a question. You continue to purport that this 50% is a legitimate number when it's been proven by Toronto's own stats that it isn't.

Your mandate letter calls for an examination on a handgun ban. However, Chris Lewis, the former commissioner of the OPP, Adam Palmer, the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police president, and Commissioner Lucki from the RCMP have all come out and said any such ban is not the answer. It's not going to work.

What evidence, beyond political theatre, do you have that this will actually help public safety? If you aren't listening to the experts, what evidence do you actually need to show that the handgun ban is a bad idea, that it's all smoke and politics, and for you to drop this whole charade and actually work toward the serious nature of guns, gangs, gang violence and illegal firearms in this country? What evidence is it going to take for you to look at that?

[Bill Blair]

Mr. Motz, let me assure you that we will do our best to go and get the best available evidence and, where it is incomplete, try to fill in those blanks. We will also seek the advice of experts and people with various opinions and perspectives.

I have been asked to look at taking effective measures to reduce gun violence. Those measures take many forms, but they also include limiting the flow of guns into the hands of criminals who commit violent criminal acts. We know from experience, notwithstanding the incomplete data, that there are essentially two sources by which those guns can come into criminals' hands. One of them, as you quite rightly identified, is illegal smuggling from other countries, principally the United States.

I can also tell you from personal experience, because I've been involved in a number of criminal investigations, we've seen illegal diversion of handguns in the domestic market. Through either carelessness or as a result of theft and robbery, or because of criminal intent, people are selling the guns they have lawfully obtained—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I appreciate the comments, Minister. However—

[Bill Blair]

So I'm going to look at any measures—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

—you're not presenting us with any evidence today that suggests that the numbers you're purporting...that domestically sourced firearms are the real problem in this country.

Now, you said in your opening remarks what you have said repeatedly, as has Mr. Goodale. You and your Liberal colleagues talk about an investment in gang prevention. You talk about $500 million, with $327 million announced during a by-election in Surrey. As to the reason why your government passed yesterday, through the Senate, Bill C-71...which does nothing to stop gangs and gun violence in our country. However, just last week you tabled a document in the House that confirmed that you haven't spent a dime of the $327 million that was promised over a year ago. It's going to take another two years, or a year and a half, for it to even be rolled out.

Why? I guess that's my question. What is stopping that money from being spent on law enforcement, on the labs, on all the work it takes to keep Canadians safe and deal with public safety, not just a charade?

[Bill Blair]

The document that was tabled was—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

I don't know that Mr. Motz really wanted an answer to his question, because he's run out of time.

Mr. Spengemann, you have five minutes, please.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Minister Blair, welcome, and thank you for being with us.

In your exchange with Monsieur Dubé, you touched on the restoration of the harm reduction principle. It was something you wanted to elaborate on when the time ran out, so I want to give you an opportunity to finish the point you were making.

[Bill Blair]

In my experience, when we're dealing with something as complex as the opioid crisis, a focus that's entirely on enforcement misses important work. We know that a number of people are naive users. The range of Canadians having difficulties with substance use and misuse and in serious jeopardy of overdosing as a result of this drug has demanded a different and more robust response.

We have worked very hard and diligently with public health officials, with law enforcement and with people right across this country to restore the important principle of harm reduction. We have supported communities that have wanted to establish opioid prevention centres and supervised injection sites. We've also made sure we made the antidote naloxone available to law enforcement, to first responders, to those who can save lives.

We are looking at every measure possible to reduce the harm that these drugs are causing. In the last two years, 8,000 Canadians have lost their lives to this. Frankly, in my experience you can't arrest your way out of that. We have to do everything that is necessary. That includes supply interdiction and enforcement certainly, but it also includes reducing the demand for these drugs through public education, helping those naive users to be safer, and for those experiencing difficulty with these drugs, a harm reduction strategy that saves lives. For those who wish to enter into treatment, that treatment and rehabilitation should be readily available to them in a timely way.

We believe all four pillars are necessary to make this work.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

Minister Blair, can you give the committee an appreciation of how important international co-operation is in your work on organized crime reduction? This is not just with allies bilaterally but even all the way up to the international organizations, including the UN. How much work is done internationally to help us do our job here?

[Bill Blair]

I wouldn't presume to speak for the RCMP, but I chaired the national organized crime committee in Canada for almost a decade. I'm a graduate of the FBI. I have worked collaboratively with the Homeland Security committee on national security and organized crime. We work with Interpol. We work with Europol. We have very close collaboration with UNODC, the United Nations organization on drug control, and are working in southeast Asia, because we know that's the source of many of these drugs and precursor chemicals. There's important ongoing collaboration taking place under the leadership of the RCMP through its federal policing division but also involving all levels of law enforcement.

Quite simply, when we talk about stopping things at the border, both firearms and drugs, a goal-line stance doesn't work. You have to work in the red zones. What I mean by that is that you have to conduct organized crime investigations into the people who are involved in this enterprise criminal activity. That means good collaboration and co-operation between law enforcement agencies on both sides of the border. The RCMP for us leads the integrated border enforcement teams, IBETs, and they also work very collaboratively internationally.

I will tell you, because I was part of the international law enforcement community for a very long period of time, that this collaboration is the only way we can effectively respond to transnational crime trends.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Blair, is human trafficking part of your mandate? If so, can you give the committee an update on what the government is doing?

[Bill Blair]

Human trafficking, inasmuch as it's an organized criminal activity, and it most certainly is, is also within my mandate. The government is making significant investments and working very closely with community partners in order to ensure that we have strong laws, but also the resources that are necessary to tackle this.

This also has a significant international component. Working collaboratively, under the leadership of the RCMP, with our international partners is a significant part of that work.

In my experience, human trafficking is an organized, criminal activity. It's organized crime, and it requires a robust response.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

How important is reducing recruitment as the pathway to organized crime?

[Bill Blair]

There are a number of portals into organized criminal activity. Sometimes we think of it as traditional organized crime, but frankly organized criminal activity can include the recruitment of young people in poor, marginalized communities where there is a strong sense of exclusion and social injustice.

Exclusion would initially be through drug trafficking. In my experience, in the national threat assessment—which I can't talk about too much, I guess—there are several hundred organized crime groups in this country, and they make the vast majority of their money through the illicit drug trade. The recruitment of young people into those things is a significant issue for us, and frankly the threat of enforcement isn't the only way to deal with that. Making investments in young people and communities to help them make better choices is an important part of our strategy.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Spengemann.

Thank you, Minister.

Ms. Alleslev, welcome to the committee. You have five minutes.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Just to clarify, Minister, we heard you say earlier that you are not going to achieve zero people illegally crossing the border from safe spaces like upstate New York.