Yes.
Evidence of meeting #127 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offenders.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #127 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offenders.
A video is available from Parliament.
3:50 p.m.
Portage—Lisgar, CPC
Under Minister Goodale's direction, the commissioner:
has the control and management of the Service and all matters connected with the Service.
That's a clear chain of command, so if Minister Goodale did in fact decide that this decision to have Tori Stafford's murderer placed in a healing lodge should be immediately reversed, he could go to you and immediately have that process begun.
Would that require a phone call or an email? What would it require so that you could begin that process?
3:50 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Again, the minister has asked me to conduct a review of the case, and this is exactly what I'm going to do. I've already identified individuals to do the review, and I am seeking a community member. At the same time as we review the case—and I can't get into the specifics of any cases—
3:50 p.m.
Portage—Lisgar, CPC
Respectfully, I have just seven minutes, so I've been very specific. I have just seven minutes, and I'm asking a very specific question that I think we as members of Parliament...but put aside this case. Let's say hypothetically, not even with this case, that something else was happening in our prisons that Minister Goodale thought was wrong and should be changed. How would he ask you? What would be the process whereby you would make those changes? How does that work? Would he send you an email? Would he call for a meeting? Would he need to write a directive? What's the process whereby the minister would direct you?
3:50 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Well, in the case at hand, he has asked that I do an in-depth review of the case, and this is exactly what I'm going to do.
3:50 p.m.
Portage—Lisgar, CPC
You know, I'm being admonished to be respectful, and I am, and I would ask that you afford me the same respect. If you're not willing to answer the question, I would ask that you would just tell me that. Just say, “I'm not going to answer your question.”
I'm a duly elected member of Parliament and I'm asking you, ma'am, to please tell me the process. If a minister disagrees with something that is happening under your purview, how he would direct you? If you're not willing to answer that, please tell me, but please don't keep repeating that you're looking into this.
I would like to know, apart from this case, how he would begin the process. Let's say hypothetically that the government thought that a child killer should not be in a healing lodge; how a minister would communicate that to you so that you could begin.
Can I be clear? Although you are the commissioner, I think the responsibility now does lie with the minister. I think it's unfair that you are being put in this position, so I'm actually wondering what we can encourage him to do so that you then can do what he's asked you to do, because you're just trying to do your job under his direction.
3:50 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Yes, I am. Again, I was recently appointed to the position of commissioner, and this is a case for which the minister has actually asked that I do a review. That's how it was done. He asked me to do a review, and that's what I'm going to do, an in-depth review.
3:50 p.m.
Portage—Lisgar, CPC
But if there were another case?
Okay, let's not talk about this case. Again, if there were something else that was going on that the minister didn't like, how would he ask you to change that? How did he ask you to do the review? Did he send you an email? Did he phone you? How would the minister communicate with you?
3:50 p.m.
Portage—Lisgar, CPC
Okay, so if he would like you to change the process whereby Tori Stafford's murderer was in a healing lodge, he would just need to ask you to do that. That's what I'm hearing from your answers. He just needs to ask you, and then you can begin the process. I think it's clear that is what's needed.
Canadians watching this situation certainly have a lot of questions about how this could have happened. I think there are a lot of questions about whether there are any other child killers who are in facilities like the healing lodge. I think that if we as politicians and, dare I say, civil servants don't understand the gravity of this, we're probably missing not only victims' but the general public's view on this, so it would be very helpful to us if you would clearly state what you need the minister to do, because then we can encourage him, and hopefully the government will see this and will come to you immediately and ask you to begin the process to reverse this bad decision.
3:55 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
I just want to be clear. This was a tragedy that changed many lives forever. I have been asked to do a review. I am committed to doing a review of the case. As I said, we have a rigorous case management process, but through this review we will ensure that the decision was done according to the laws and the policies.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you both, Ms. Bergen and Madam Kelly.
Mr. Dubé, you have seven minutes.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for being here, Commissioner Kelly. Congratulations on your appointment.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
There are a number of points I would like to raise.
The first pertains to solitary confinement or administrative segregation, as the case may be. You are of course aware of the case in British Columbia that the government has appealed.
I know it is up to the Department of Justice to decide whether or not to appeal a decision. That said, from your point of view, what would prevent us from introducing a bill in the House of Commons to require the application of the standards stipulated by the court, standards that would be consistent with the United Nations guidelines on the treatment of prisoners?
3:55 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Are you referring to administrative segregation?
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Yes, I am referring to the case in British Columbia. The judge ruled recently in favour of the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association. He ruled that stricter standards must be applied for the use of solitary confinement. The government filed an appeal in this case.
Is there something in your organization that would stand in the way of the court decision being implemented immediately? A bill to this effect would of course have to be passed.
3:55 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
As you know, two separate decisions are currently under appeal.
Administrative segregation is of concern to us. We work very hard to reduce the number of offenders in administrative segregation.
I have the statistics for the past five years. There has in fact been a significant reduction in the number of cases of administrative segregation. The average number of cases per day has decreased from 731 in 2013-14 to 310 in 2017-18.
These are complex cases. We continue to work hard on this. A number of steps have been taken.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
As Ms. Bergen pointed out, our speaking time is limited. I would say that mine is especially limited since I am the only NDP member on this committee.
I would simply like to know if you have any information to the effect that the government should not go along with the United Nations, which recommended limiting administrative segregation to 15 days and implementing a more robust mechanism for offenders to appeal a decision. Do you have any information that such measures could pose a threat to correctional officers, for instance? This would not take effect overnight, of course, but could stricter criteria be established right away for the use of solitary confinement?
3:55 p.m.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Once again, we will wait to see what happens. We continue to work on this issue. We have made a number of changes. In 2015, for instance, we reviewed the selection criteria for persons serving on the segregation review board. In 2017, we made other important changes. Inmates may now spend two hours outside their cell and have a shower every day. We are continuing the work that was already done to try to reduce the number of offenders in administrative segregation.
4 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Thank you.
I would like to move on to something else.
The committee presented a unanimous report to the House of Commons regarding post-traumatic stress disorder. The report pertained specifically to correctional officers, who are often sorely overlooked even though their work is as important as that of the police and other public safety officers.
What steps has your organization taken to implement some of the report's recommendations and to resolve the situation on the whole?