Evidence of meeting #128 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bruno Gendron  Ottawa Police Service
Jocelyn Grondin  Chief Executive Officer, Urgence Bois-Francs Inc.
Shawn McLaren  Chief Learning Officer, National Office, St. John Ambulance Canada
Andrew Stanzel  Council Commissioner, Federal District, St. John Ambulance Canada
Philip Girouard  President, Urgence Bois-Francs Inc.
Scott Reid  Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, CPC
Jamie Solesme  Director, Policy and Programs, Contract and Aboriginal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Nathalie Guilbault  Director, Materiel and Moveable Assets Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Bruce Christianson  Director, Occupational Safety Policy and Program, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Ruby Sahota  Brampton North, Lib.

4:25 p.m.

Cst Bruno Gendron

Yes.

However, the City of Ottawa has a large, I would even say vast, rural area. We have police officers in rural areas who are always on patrol in their vehicle and who respond to medical calls when they get them from paramedics. As I explained, we often have to help an unconscious person. The police are prepared to respond to calls.

I know that some MPs talked about installing defibrillators in buildings. However, unless they are open 24 hours a day, that can be a problem. The police cruiser is always in service and available to respond to emergency calls. In rural ares, firefighters and paramedics also respond. One of them will always get there more quickly than the others.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

We should also be thinking about firefighters in rural regions. Volunteer firefighters might be another resource.

4:25 p.m.

Cst Bruno Gendron

I wouldn't say that volunteer firefighters are the best solution because they are at home and they have to get to the station, gather equipment and take the vehicle. A police officer or a paramedic at the station will be much faster than a volunteer firefighter.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

I actually found the app. There's the Save A Life app that St. John Ambulance started. I'm not sure I have it fully operational on my phone, but thank you for letting me know about the app.

The other question is about education. We talked about age, but how do you think we best reach people? There are people who voluntarily choose or they do it through their work, but you're talking about a really basic piece, these AEDs. I could go to my hockey rink and use it. I have no idea how to use it and I would be terrified to reach out and use it in the wrong circumstance. How can we get that information?

4:25 p.m.

Council Commissioner, Federal District, St. John Ambulance Canada

Andrew Stanzel

As far as the AED is concerned, you're never going to use it in the wrong situation. It will not shock if it's not supposed to shock. It's built into the software and it looks at ECG rhythm. We in the medical field know what we're looking at when we look at that monitor. We know what to shock and not shock. For the layperson, the “A” in AED stands for “automatic”. It does everything for you, depending on what model you have.

The model that our guys carry has pictures of where the pads go when you open up the lid, and it does everything else. It tells you when to do CPR. It tells you when to back off of it. It charges and it shocks. Those are the most automatic models. Some models out there require you to press a button to charge and press a button to shock. That button usually flashes at you. They're made, as they said, to be very simple so that as long as someone can listen and see the pictures to know where the pads go, it should work.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

We need to get that message out to people, because even though they might be that easy and fail-safe, I don't think people know that.

4:30 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Urgence Bois-Francs Inc.

Jocelyn Grondin

The important message we need to get across to people is to not be afraid to intervene. The person cannot be worse off after an intervention than they were before. It's better to administer bad intervention than not to intervene at all.

That is the message we like to drive home when we provide training at schools or other places. We tell participants not to be afraid to intervene, that they will not be sued if they do something wrong, and that the person will die if nothing is done. We tell them that the person cannot be worse off after an intervention than before.

I think that the more we get this message out, the better our chances for resuscitation.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin.

Thank you for your testimony.

Thank you for your service not only to us as citizens, but also your service in coming here to the committee and informing us.

With that, we're going to suspend for a couple of minutes and then call the next witnesses.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Okay, let's call this meeting back to order.

We have as our final witness for today the RCMP. I'm going to call on Jamie Solesme.

Would you start with the opening statement, please.

4:35 p.m.

Superintendent Jamie Solesme Director, Policy and Programs, Contract and Aboriginal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and honourable members of the committee. Thank you for inviting the RCMP to speak to you about motion 124 regarding AEDs.

I am joined today by my colleagues Bruce Christianson, from occupational health and safety, and Nathalie Guilbault, from our materiel and assets management section. We are here to provide you with information and to answer your questions to help inform your deliberations on this motion.

According to the Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada, approximately 40,000 Canadians suffer from sudden cardiac arrest each year, of which 80% occur outside of hospital settings. This is one reason that all RCMP officers are required to be trained and recertified in CPR and first aid, which includes the use of AEDs. The RCMP is committed to our communities, with CPR and first aid training for our officers being one demonstrable enhancement to our public safety role as first responders.

Currently in most Canadian communities, more than half of all cardiac arrest patients do not receive CPR prior to the arrival of paramedics and first responders. All police are committed to community safety and well-being. Fortunately, public access to AEDs has increased significantly in recent years across Canada, and we are encouraged by the installation of AEDs in public spaces, including public rinks, arenas and recreation centres across Canada.

We are aware that motion 124 calls for the equipping of all RCMP vehicles with AEDs to support greater public access to these life-saving devices. We are here today to provide the committee with information and to highlight for the committee's deliberations considerations related to the motion.

I will briefly outline to the committee the current use and policies for AEDs within the RCMP.

The RCMP has adopted a limited AED program, which is guided by the RCMP's national occupational safety manual. AEDs have been approved for installation and use in the following RCMP operational areas: emergency medical response teams, the divisional fitness and lifestyles program, some protective policing details, and in those instances where provincial policing standards require that an AED be available. Furthermore, the standard first aid curriculum in which all RCMP members are required to be recertified every three years includes the use of AEDs.

In addressing costs, several operational rollout and financial considerations must be assessed. We undertook a preliminary scope analysis that sought to highlight some of the RCMP's specific challenges and to provide you with some variables for financial order-of-magnitude figures.

As an example, to support the G7 summit in June 2018, the RCMP undertook a procurement exercise to purchase a limited number of AEDs specifically for this event. These devices cost approximately $1,700 per unit, which aligns with the range of costs that was reported to the committee in June. Additionally, compact AEDs, which were purchased for our emergency response team in 2016, cost approximately $4,500 per unit.

As of September 2018, the RCMP has approximately 12,200 vehicles in its fleet, of which close to 5,000 are marked police vehicles. The remainder are unmarked, operational, administrative and special purpose vehicles.

It is important to consider the additional costs required for ongoing maintenance and replacement of these devices. Furthermore, there are a number of other considerations that could result in higher costs or difficulties in rolling out AEDs to the RCMP fleet.

While the RCMP has procured a limited number of AEDs, these devices have been purchased for use primarily within RCMP facilities or for short-term events such as the recent G7. To determine what devices or series of devices would be required for use nationally in RCMP vehicles, an in-depth analysis would be necessary to evaluate operational parameters, including climate, temperature, durability and interoperability with existing equipment. The analysis would provide information to ensure that any device purchased would operate to a known standard, regardless of weather, temperature or location in Canada.

The RCMP takes a number of factors into consideration when determining whether to purchase or roll out new police equipment.

Given the unique contract policing role the RCMP plays in Canada, decisions taken by provincial, territorial and municipal governments play a significant part in how the RCMP purchases, trains, maintains and equips front-line members with new equipment. However, from a Canada Labour Code perspective, for officer safety reasons the RCMP does set minimum standards. Currently, the RCMP provides contract policing services to all provinces and territories, with the exception of Ontario and Quebec, as well as some 150 municipalities. These services are provided through police service agreements, which see the cost for RCMP services shared by provincial or municipal governments and with the federal government.

In consultation with the RCMP, the provinces, territories and municipalities establish the level of resources, the budget and policing priorities in their respective jurisdictions. It is through these consultations and decisions by the government of local jurisdictions that the RCMP is allotted funding for the purchase of new equipment.

To implement M-124, the RCMP would need to first determine the range of device options that would be appropriate for use nationally. An analysis would need to be undertaken to determine how and where these devices could be housed in a vehicle, being mindful of the multitude of other equipment our officers require for their daily duties, specifically in the north. Additionally, consultation with contract partners would be required to determine the extent to which these devices could be deployed.

The RCMP is committed to the safety of its employees and the citizens it serves. While our primary mandate is for the provision of law enforcement, we often get called upon to support the broader first responder role. We will continue to work with our partner stakeholders, including provinces, territories and municipalities, to establish policing priorities in their respective jurisdictions.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today. We look forward to answering your questions.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Superintendent.

For the first seven minutes, we'll go to Ms. Damoff.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

I'm first again...? Okay.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

That's what we keep getting told here. We should get these things together.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much for your presentation, Superintendent. I apologize, but I missed the beginning of it. Did you say what the cost would be to equip all the vehicles with the AEDs?

4:40 p.m.

Supt Jamie Solesme

No, I did not provide a cost, but we procured the AEDs for the G7, and they were $1,700 per unit. Additionally, our EMRTs—our emergency medical response teams—have smaller, more compact units at a cost of $4,500 a unit.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

Okay. If it's $1,700 a unit, how many vehicles are we looking at equipping?

4:40 p.m.

Supt Jamie Solesme

It's about 12,200 vehicles.

4:40 p.m.

Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, CPC

Scott Reid

About 5,000 cruisers....

4:40 p.m.

Supt Jamie Solesme

Yes, it's 5,000 marked police vehicles.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

That's a big number.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

You provide policing in indigenous communities.

4:40 p.m.

Supt Jamie Solesme

That is correct.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

What is the availability of AEDs within those communities? Would it be beneficial to equip the RCMP vehicles that are servicing indigenous communities?

4:40 p.m.

Supt Jamie Solesme

Our primary role is law enforcement, and we depend heavily on the services that exist in the community in terms of first responders. As the previous witnesses attested, having those devices available, whether it's at a medical clinic, a public...or through any emergency first responder, is an asset.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

The RCMP work in rural and indigenous communities as well as within cities. There's a detachment in Milton, Ontario, just outside of my riding, for example, where I suspect the response times are probably quite quick, whereas if you were in rural Saskatchewan they would be much longer.

You may not have this number, but would it be possible to see how many vehicles we would be looking at if you were equipping only RCMP vehicles that were in those more rural or indigenous settings?