Evidence of meeting #135 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inmates.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Anne Kelly  Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Jim Eglinski  Yellowhead, CPC
Superintendent Fraser Macaulay  Acting Senior Deputy Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Angela Connidis  Director General, Crime Prevention, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Ruby Sahota  Brampton North, Lib.
Jennifer Wheatley  Assistant Commissioner, Health Services, Correctional Service of Canada

5 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Mr. Motz, you have five minutes, please.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner Kelly for being here, and your staff.

As we heard from the minister during his remarks and in answering questions, as well as with a comment that you just made, it appears that this legislation will prompt a substantial increase in health professionals, mental health workers, and probation, parole and program workers. You mentioned correctional officers and guards, as well.

Has Correctional Service of Canada undertaken an analysis of the number of resources that you'll be required to implement and step up in compliance to this legislation?

5:05 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

Anne Kelly

This is something that we're still looking at.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Do you have any idea how many numbers you're going to need across the spectrum of what your mandate is federally in the country?

5:05 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

Anne Kelly

I don't have those numbers.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Are you doing them, or have you done them?

5:05 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

Anne Kelly

We are looking at that.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Okay.

5:05 p.m.

Director General, Crime Prevention, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Angela Connidis

I would echo what the minister had said, that as the legislation goes through the formal process with the House of Commons and the Senate, we will be continuing to monitor how that works and will undertake our continuing efforts to identify the full human resource needs and capital needs. That will then come out through the budget process.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Fair enough, but at this stage, it would be reasonable for an organization of your size, with the potential of this looming, for you to undertake to have a staffing analysis done, which you say you are in the works of doing.

Has anyone from the current government asked for a cost analysis of the staffing implications of this to date?

5:05 p.m.

Director General, Crime Prevention, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Angela Connidis

Every time we look at different policy changes, we take a broad look at all the implications. Definitely that would have been done, but we're not in a position to start putting numbers forth.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

You haven't started putting any numbers towards the cost of this bill yet.

Are you able to provide the committee a list of the parts of the bill that you are looking at that have cost implications in their impacts?

5:05 p.m.

Director General, Crime Prevention, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Angela Connidis

I'll have to get back to you on that one. Is that on particular parts of the bill costed out per se?

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

The bill will have cost implications, and there are a number of different clauses in the bill that will have large budget implications. What I'm asking is if you can provide a list of those parts of the bill that have costing implications to us. We're going to need that as we go through the amendments of this bill. That would be critical, if you could.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Is that within the ability of the commission?

5:05 p.m.

Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

Anne Kelly

At this point, the bill talks about the fact that there are going to be health care professionals, so as Angela said, there are going to be resources required. The minister said that, and this is, again, something that's been undertaken.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

I'm not asking for a dollar amount. The minister said that hasn't been done and that it's part of a process that will be coming, depending on the impacts of this legislation and what is passed and what isn't.

Obviously, as a department, you know what is going to be part of the implications for you to study, and that's all I'm asking. In your estimation as Correctional Service, do you see that having a financial impact? My request is to get that back to the committee, if you could.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I don't quite understand what is being asked here, because you're saying you don't want a dollar amount.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

There are sections in this bill that will have financial implications. All I'm asking is for Correctional Service to say, “Here's the areas of this legislation where we anticipate having to do a cost analysis”. They don't have a cost analysis. That's been made clear by them and the minister, but I'd like to know where they think there will be financial implications with the implementation of this bill.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Is that understood?

5:05 p.m.

Director General, Crime Prevention, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Angela Connidis

What I would say, if I understand, is that while a section may have cost implications, we would not be in a position right now to say whether that would be new cost implications. As any operation has, they will have cost implications, but it might be covered under current operational expenses.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

That leads me to the next question. That's staffing I talked about.

We heard from the minister that there are significant redesign and renovation requirements specific to this legislation as well. You know your infrastructure inventory across the country. How substantial of a renovation redesign are we talking to meet the SIUs specifically, only?

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Go ahead and answer his question. Mr. Motz is always disappointed at how I run the clock.

5:10 p.m.

C/Supt Fraser Macaulay

We have put together an implementation team. We also have some infrastructure. I don't believe the minister said “substantial”, and even from our own perspectives right now, we're trying to work with the numbers—projected numbers is the term—and how much intervention space and what types of intervention spaces we're going to need. The implementation team is working on those things.

At some of our sites, we know that we have spaces where we can deal with issues the way the physical infrastructure is today; others will require changes. Even if I start talking about the scanners—there was some discussion about scanners—where those are placed within the institution strategically and the type of scanner we're going to use will depend on what we need in the way of infrastructure changes.