Evidence of meeting #137 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was actually.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
4:10 p.m.
Jim Eglinski Yellowhead, CPC
You suggested in your report that the CSC no longer has credibility to investigate itself, yet we are asked to look at this Bill C-83 and pass it. Once we pass it, the minister and CSC will tell us how it works. Then they'll tell us how much it costs, because they say they don't really know today.
That leaves a big question mark, so my question to you is, would you recommend passing this legislation as it is?
4:10 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
I'm of the view that there was insufficient consultation with external stakeholders. This is why I think you have a product that requires some significant amendments. Is it salvageable? I think it is if that component of external oversight is brought in. As it currently stands, I think it falls short.
Everything rests upon the discretion of the service to manage itself and ensure that they use those SIUs as infrequently as possible. We know very well that the history of corrections has been a gross overuse of administrative segregation for decades, until they finally decided to give it a bit of corporate attention and actually apply the current law. Then we saw it drop about 60% in terms of numbers in segregation. Those numbers could go up.
That's what's important about this legislation. I do believe the commissioner is well intentioned to try to reduce those numbers in segregation and keep at bay those SIUs. I also believe the minister when he says it. The issue is that this legislation has to go beyond the good intention of the current administration to a future commissioner and a future government. This is what worries me. We have seen the proliferation of SIU-like conditions of confinement.
4:15 p.m.
Yellowhead, CPC
Good. Thank you.
You mentioned three minutes ago one gentleman at 510 days, one at 280-some days, another at 300-some days. As the correctional investigator, did you investigate the one with 510 days? Was it justified for him to be in there? Do you investigate those who are in the 100-, 200-, 300-day cycles?
4:15 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
Let me ask my executive director. She can probably tell you, without giving the names of those individuals, what we do.
November 20th, 2018 / 4:15 p.m.
Marie-France Kingsley Executive Director, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
Each one of our senior investigators who visits a penitentiary and meets with offenders also visits the segregation area. Each of these investigators also has the numbers, and will raise those large numbers with the warden and ask for an explanation and/or a review on every single visit, every single time.
4:15 p.m.
Yellowhead, CPC
Have you had any wardens refuse to give that information to you? Has there been a problem after they...? Have you seen consistent problems afterward?
4:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
Have they refused to give the information? No. CSC has to respond to our queries and to our information requests. There can be disagreements. Our recommendations, as you are aware, are not binding, but we do raise the issues, and there is a response provided.
4:15 p.m.
Yellowhead, CPC
When you have this response, maybe their reason for it is different than yours. Have you found that you've been able to negotiate with Correctional Service of Canada and come to a compromise? Each one of these long-term ones is a unique situation.
4:15 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
I have about 15 investigators, and they go to the penitentiary regularly to visit. They take complaints and they sit down with wardens and negotiate. Usually we have resolution.
There are some difficult cases out there. This is why some of those egregious cases are difficult cases. Either they won't leave the segregation area or they are so notorious that to protect them from harm, you have to leave them in those segregation areas. I'll leave it at that.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you very much. I appreciated it.
Mr. Picard, you have five minutes.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Zinger, you mentioned that, considering the environment, it was necessary to have restrictive measures for some individuals. You differentiate between restrictive measures and the expression “segregation lite” that you used.
What is the difference between those two concepts?
4:15 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
It has to do with the number of hours, in the sense that administrative segregation, or what is called
solitary confinement
is defined by United Nations as 22 hours or more. In this case, we are talking about 20 hours.
It is worthwhile noting that nothing in the bill concerns solitary confinement that cannot currently be used by the CSC, which does not need the bill to do everything set out in it.
The CSC has already reduced that length from 23 hours to 22 hours, and it can reduce it even further to 20 hours, simply by adopting a policy on that. It does not need a bill to do so. It can be much more dynamic by providing programs to get inmates out of that more restrictive environment. It can also provide mental health care. All that is at its discretion, and it can already do so without the bill.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
Do you have a proposal in terms of the hours spent outside the cell? What number of hours would be more reasonable than the minimum of four hours? What should that number of hours be to reduce the difference between the number of hours for regular units and for segregation units?
4:20 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
That is the challenge here. I think that 20 hours is too restrictive. There should be a degree of procedural fairness. If, for example, units provided six hours outside the cell, there would be no need for the same degree of procedural fairness, but acceptable procedural fairness should still be maintained.
The 1997 report produced by the task force on administrative segregation of which I was a member said that it was either administrative segregation or open population, but between the two, there were all sorts of things and no procedural fairness.
We are a bit disappointed in that respect because it must absolutely be ensured that, the more restrictive the environment, the greater the procedural fairness. It should also be ensured that the CSC would be compelled to do whatever is needed to improve detention conditions, so that people could function in a less restrictive environment.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
On another note, the bill proposes that the quality of health care be reviewed, especially when an inmate dies. Physicians conduct their examination, and then a review of the quality of health care is done. I assume that health professionals are already following protocols on how to behave with inmates and that, within an institution, those protocols take into account the fact that an inmate may be diabetic or have allergies, for example.
Do you feel that this review is necessary every time someone dies? To update those practices, could consideration be given to an annual systematic review and, as needed, an additional special review owing to the new circumstances?
4:20 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
There are just over 60 deaths per year, and I think that the CSC should investigate in every case. If the facts are very simple, there is no need to spend three months on an investigation. If someone dies from a heart attack, the file is checked to determine whether the previously provided care was appropriate. That can be done very quickly.
I think that more difficult cases should be addressed, but nothing should be let go. What may seem like a natural death can be a premature death caused by the fact that health care was inadequate or there was no oversight. All that needs to be reviewed, and an independent investigation must be conducted for every death.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Thank you, Chair.
Keeping with that point, do the coroners get involved with any in-custody deaths that occur in Correctional Service of Canada? Can you explain how that looks and works?
4:20 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
By law, the service has to conduct an investigation. Once convened, the board of investigation has to send its results to my office. That's for every death.
Beyond that, coroners typically do a review, but that review can be years later.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
It's just a paper review. It's not an actual body review.
4:20 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
Well, it depends on the provinces. Some of the provinces have mandatory examinations, and it's a fairly lengthy process. Sometimes it's the medical examiner, and so on.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Does it concern you that the head of an institution is able to change the designations of a portion of that prison?
4:25 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator of Canada
Yes, it does, because you could designate an entire penitentiary as an SIU. That's currently in the bill. This is why I'm worried about how this could, under different circumstances and given that the average length of out-of-cell time has actually diminished over the years.... The services do not even keep track of that. There's been a proliferation of restrictive environments over the years.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
I just want to chat briefly about the administrative segregation, or whatever the bill's going to call it now—the structured intervention unit, or whatever it's going to be called.
Will it actually change how inmates are treated, in your opinion?