Evidence of meeting #14 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was treatment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Zul Merali  President and Chief Executive Officer, The Royal’s Institute of Mental Health Research and the Canadian Depression Research and Intervention Network, As an Individual
Alice Aiken  Director, Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research
Paul Frewen  Professor, Psychologist, Department of Psychiatry, University of Western Ontario, As an Individual

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair (Mr. Robert Oliphant (Don Valley West, Lib.)) Liberal Rob Oliphant

Good morning, everybody. I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to the 14th meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

We are continuing our study on operational stress injuries and post-traumatic stress disorder in public safety officers and first responders. We welcome our guests and witnesses.

Colleagues, I just want to mention that at noon we will be joined by another witness, Dr. Paul Frewen. Because we have only three witnesses today as opposed to our usual four, I suggest we plan on ending the meeting 15 minutes early, at about 12:45. Then we would ask the subcommittee on agenda and procedure to stay for about 15 minutes to go over the witness list for the next few sessions, get that done, and still be out by one o'clock today.

Is that agreed as a kind of working plan? If it turns out that you want more time with the witnesses, absolutely we will do that, but I think we probably should have sufficient time.

Dr. Zul Merali will be our first witness to speak. Each witness has about 10 minutes, so we'll have 20 minutes for presentations, members will ask questions, and then Dr. Frewen will come in after that.

Dr. Merali, welcome. I appreciate your taking the time, and I look forward to your enlightening us.

11:05 a.m.

Dr. Zul Merali President and Chief Executive Officer, The Royal’s Institute of Mental Health Research and the Canadian Depression Research and Intervention Network, As an Individual

Thank you very much.

It's a real honour to be presenting and discussing this issue with you. Rather than making a major formal presentation, I'm going to leave some room for a dialogue, because I know that over the course of your deliberations you have had a lot of presentations that tell you about the scourge of depression and PTSD affecting people of all stripes, including first responders and people in uniform as well as first nations populations. I'm sure you have been well briefed on the immense suffering of their comrades, their families, and their friends, but I'm here today to tell you why I believe the situation is not getting better.

I hear a lot of unsettling statistics about how, as the population returns from Afghanistan, there is going to be a higher rate of PTSD, that the cost of medical marijuana is projected to increase to something like $30 million, and that the rates of suicide are not decreasing and if anything are on the rise.

I would like to share my views on how we could collectively try to correct the course trajectory of these kinds of statistics. I think my plea would be that we need to take research and innovation much more seriously than we have to date, because if we do business the same way as we have always been doing, we cannot expect different outcomes. The different outcomes are really going to come through research and innovation.

Let's do a bit of a reality check. We are successfully treating only about a third of the people suffering from depression and post-traumatic stress disorder—only a third. Another third are really not responding too well, so they are not ready to go back to work. The last third will not respond no matter what you do. It doesn't matter what treatment regimes we have.

Our treatments are taking far too long to kick in and, when they do kick in, they're not very enduring. Why? It's because the way we diagnose and treat medical conditions leaves a lot to be desired. There's much need for improvement.

Let us first talk about the treatments, or I'd say lack of adequate treatments.

As I said, we only bring about a third of people into remission, and the other two-thirds are doing poorly. Even in the third who are showing a positive response, many will relapse within the first year. If you had a situation like this for heart disease or for diabetes, we would not accept it. Why do we accept this for mental illness? It really boggles my mind. We need to move ahead on this front.

One of the problems is that we continue to diagnose mental illnesses by symptoms. People ask you how you feel, and then you may describe your symptoms, and there's a checklist that people go through. Then they say, “You pass the threshold, we give you this diagnosis.”

However, you all know and we all know that there is a huge amount of variability in the symptoms that people express, either symptoms that affect people or the symptoms that affected people want to communicate to you and talk to you about. There's a lot of variability. There can be a variety of emotional symptoms, for example, including depression, worry, intense feelings of guilt, and emotionality. There are intrusive thoughts of various kinds, including memories and sleep disturbances. As well, there are a variety of physical symptoms: neurological, respiratory, musculoskeletal, and cardiovascular.

The symptoms may manifest themselves within months of a traumatic event or years after a traumatic event. They may appear after a single episode of stressure or they may appear after a protracted series of traumatic experiences, as with multiple combat situations.

The point I'm trying to make is that there's a huge amount of variability in the factors that precipitate things such as depression and post-traumatic stress disorder, and the ways in which people express those symptoms are variable.

Then we have these diagnostic scales that are entirely based on the symptoms. We have no blood tests. We have no brain scans. These are the kinds of tests that we have come to expect for heart disease, cancer, and other things, but not for mental illness. We don't have those. As a result, two people can have extremely different symptom expressions, yet they'll both be given the same diagnosis and they'll both possibly end up getting the same kind of treatment. No wonder our treatments don't work well.

Why are we in this predicament? Why is this so different from other medical conditions? After all, this is a medical condition. I think we have to begin to focus a bit more on biology, because our diagnostics right now are agnostic of biology. It's all based on symptoms. Also, we need to develop biomarkers through blood tests and brain scans.

In terms of technology, I think we are at a stage where there have been huge advancements in terms of both genetics and, for example, imaging. We recently invested a huge amount of resources into creating a brain imaging centre at The Royal. The reason we did it is that we wanted to provide a platform that could help us peer into the living brain.

How can you treat an organ that you can't see? You take your car to a mechanic because you know that he knows how the car works. He can see it, he can open your engine, and he can feel it. You can't do that to the brain. Your brain is locked away in the vault of your skull. There is no easy way to get to it. You can't get to it, you can't feel it, you can't pulse it, and you can't see a lump as you can for a cancer. You need to peer inside the living brain to see what is happening. You need to do a sort of non-invasive biopsy of the living brain so that you know what's going on.

In the case of mental illness, we know it's brain based. We need to peer in. It's not just a matter of looking into the brain for abnormalities that are anatomical. I don't think there will be anatomical abnormalities. What is happening is that some circuits within the brain are starting to malfunction. What we need to find out is which ones are the rogue circuits. Where is it that certain symptoms are expressing themselves? How can we use the technologies we have, and other means, to better diagnose—to diagnose early and diagnose precisely, and to know what is causing the illness so that we can specifically treat it in a personalized way, as we do for other illnesses?

For example, if you have a cancer, they'll do a scan. They'll tell you the regions in your body where they see growths. Then they'll do a biopsy and identify the cell type. Then they'll do a spectrum analysis on the cell and say what chemotherapy they think is very specific for that cell type, and that's what they'll put you on. This is all evidence based.

It's my dream that this is where we will get to in terms of mental illnesses. We need to become much more precise and individualized, because we have seen that “one size fits all” does not work. We cannot keep doing the same things over and over again and expect better outcomes. We may throw all the resources we want at these treatments, but we know what the success rates are. Why don't we invest in something that's going to change that?

I thought I'd come here not to tell you a pretty story, but rather to lay out the facts as they are, to tell you what some of the difficulties are in how we do business, to tell you about the lack of effectiveness in the treatments we're using, and to give you a bit of a solution as to how we can begin to find our way out of this pit-hole that we're in right now.

Really, I think investment in research and innovation will be our ticket to what we're looking for, a better quality of life for those who are suffering in silence. We can throw as much compensation at people as we want, and it will only keep on increasing if we don't stem the problem. We need to be able to figure out what goes awry so that we can begin not only to have customized treatments but also, further upstream, to prevent people from getting ill and getting into these situations.

I thought I'd stop at that and open up the floor to see what questions you might have on this front, because I think it is really a call for help.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Thank you very much for that. I find it very interesting that we often have researchers who come to us telling us how wonderful their research is and how we should just add a little more funding to it, and they think we'll be impressed. Others come to say they that don't know and they need more funding for that. I find this very helpful. It's very much appreciated. Thanks for that honest assessment.

Ms. Aiken, we're going to hear you, and then we will ask questions.

May 5th, 2016 / 11:15 a.m.

Dr. Alice Aiken Director, Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research

Thank you. I'm Dr. Alice Aiken. I'm the scientific director of the Canadian Institute for Miliary and Veteran Health Research and a professor at Queen's University.

I'm going to talk to you today about a model that I think works well and could potentially work to meet your needs, and that's the model we follow. I had the advantage of being at an earlier meeting held in Regina and talking about this very issue. TheHonourable Michel Picard was there as well.

I would really urge the committee to think beyond just post-traumatic stress disorder and encompass all mental health. The issue is that if you only focus on post-traumatic stress disorder, we're going to have a lot of people getting that diagnosis who don't have the problem, and, as we just heard from my esteemed colleague, we're already struggling with finding the correct treatments. It's not going to help if everybody is getting the wrong diagnosis in the first place, so I really urge you to think beyond just post-traumatic stress disorder to mental health more broadly.

One of the facts that supports this is our focus is in military and veteran health research. We know from very good epidemiological data that there are many influences on mental health disorders beyond simply our own biology. There are societal, cultural, and experiential influences on mental health, and one of the best examples of that was a very large-scale study done out of the U.K. on returning combat veterans with mental health issues. The number one diagnosis in the U.S. is post-traumatic stress disorder; in Canada it's a major depressive disorder; in the U.K. it's binge drinking. All three are related diagnoses, but there are obviously differences in culture that might explain those.

I just want you to keep that in mind: that perhaps just to focus on PTSD is not ideal.

As I mentioned, about seven years ago we started the Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research, and respecting what Minister Oliphant said, we started out with no money and we did it because it was the right thing to do and a good idea. I'm extraordinarily biased, because I am a veteran and I'm married to a veteran, so I thought it was extremely important.

We started this institute at arm's-length from, but in consultation with, National Defence and Veterans Affairs. They recognized that they needed independent arm's-length research to inform their health policies, practices, and programs as they moved forward. Both National Defence and Veterans Affairs recognized that. Their link-in was to the academic community. I would hope that we perceive in this country that a lot of our best and brightest researchers exist in our academic institutions and that it would be where government should be able to turn for these answers.

We actually do operationalize a fairly large standing offer now on behalf of National Defence and Veterans Affairs for their research ideas that they want to put out to the research community. We are a network of 41 Canadian universities and over 1,000 researchers dedicated to researching the health needs of military personnel, veterans, and their families. Public Works has actually cited the way we do business with National Defence and Veterans Affairs as the way government and academia should be working together, so we're pretty proud of that.

The other thing that we did not do from the beginning is we did not limit the research areas. We really wanted to focus on the population, which I think is very similar to your mandate. Your mandate is public safety personnel, meaning first responders, corrections, 911 operators—public safety personnel in a broad sense. We focus on military, veterans, and families.

The vast majority of the research is being done in mental health, but we also do research in physical health, novel health and technologies, and occupational health. There are different areas of research, and what's been really remarkable is we're now seeing overlap among a lot of the areas of research. For example, some of the technology allows for children of military families who are moving around the country to still be treated by the same psychologist through social media and through technology. Those are really neat overlapping areas of research.

I think it's incumbent upon our government—and I say this not as a researcher but as a taxpayer—to ensure that policy or programming decisions are based on evidence, and it's out there. It exists. It's just not always harnessed and used to the best of our abilities. I believe the academic community is here to help with that.

I'll stop there. I'm happy to answer any questions, but my orientation is just to say we've done it. We're happy to help any other group that wants to set up similar organizations for public safety, but I'm going to agree 100% with Dr. Merali that it needs to start with the research. To focus on one area of treatment or to fund treatment programs blindly doesn't solve the problem. We need to go back to research, and some of it in very basic science and new diagnostic methods.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Thank you.

We'll begin our questioning. We'll start with Mr. Erskine-Smith.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Thanks very much.

My first question is a simple one. I note that at the round table there was a conversation about terminology and the difference between PTSD and OSI. Do you think it makes more sense to move to the use of the term “OSI”?

11:20 a.m.

Director, Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research

Dr. Alice Aiken

PTSD is a formal diagnosis, and operational stress injury is not. What the research is telling us is that often a childhood history of trauma can predispose somebody to developing post-traumatic stress disorder. There may be underlying mental health issues that come out because of operational issues. I would say that operational stress injury is more encompassing. It allows for pre-existence of the condition or for a work-related cause. I think it's definitely more encompassing, and it's not a diagnosis.

It also allows for what a lot of the research is looking into right now—that some of this may not be a mental health injury. It may be a moral injury, and that's important to consider as well.

11:20 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, The Royal’s Institute of Mental Health Research and the Canadian Depression Research and Intervention Network, As an Individual

Dr. Zul Merali

I tend to agree with Dr. Aiken. Next week I'm off to the United States, where they have an organization called One Mind. It's led by a retired army general, Peter Chiarelli. He tells me that in the United States they wish they had the same approach we have here in Canada. OSI gets people away from the issues of stigma and diagnosis and points them towards looking for help and intervention. Also, it encompasses the overarching combination of things. The injuries don't need to be emotional; they could be physical, or a combination of physical and emotional. OSI captures that, so it's a good term to have.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Dr. Merali, you spoke of the abject failure of current approaches and of the need for more research and innovation. I wonder if you could be more specific. You mentioned developing biomarkers. Can you explain how much more investment is needed if we want to get better practices?

11:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, The Royal’s Institute of Mental Health Research and the Canadian Depression Research and Intervention Network, As an Individual

Dr. Zul Merali

Let me ask you in exchange what you would say in the realm of cancer. There's a huge amount of investment and there are definite milestones that have been achieved, but there's a long way to go there as well. It's the same with mental illness. It's hard to come up with a figure of how much the solution will cost. The solution is there, but we need to get to it. What will it take? I can't honestly tell you, but I can tell you that if we don't do this, we'll never have the solutions we want.

Secondly, I'll tell you that it looks highly promising. The new technologies at our disposal are being exploited for other illnesses. We have to retool them.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

You mentioned biomarkers and you mentioned scanning. This is not an area I'm familiar with. Could you give us some examples of where we should be going?

11:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, The Royal’s Institute of Mental Health Research and the Canadian Depression Research and Intervention Network, As an Individual

Dr. Zul Merali

I think that we're banking very much on brain imaging. The reason is that the symptom expression in depression or post-traumatic stress disorder, among other mental illnesses, is very variable. We need to better understand the genesis. Where are those circuits in the brain that are responsible for the expression of these symptoms? When we find out, we can go to the source of where things are going awry, understanding the neurochemical processes that are making the circuits go rogue. Then we can fix them. Unless you can see and identify them, you cannot find ways to fix them.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

You mentioned that it's promising. For the layman, how close are we to accomplishing that?

11:25 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, The Royal’s Institute of Mental Health Research and the Canadian Depression Research and Intervention Network, As an Individual

Dr. Zul Merali

I think we're making a lot of progress on that front. The fact is that these steps or tools have not been easily accessible for people doing research in mental health. That's why the scanner we have at The Royal is going to be dedicated to mental health and neuroscience. It's probably one of the very few in the world that's going to be dedicated. We need to have open access to the machine to address our problems.

There are some inklings that we're getting through research for where the progress could be. We can, for example, see the brains of people with post-traumatic stress disorder. There's a researcher in the States by the name of Dr. Alex Neumeister who published evidence showing that if you looked at those brain scans, you wouldn't have to be a neuroscientist to discern a person with post-traumatic stress disorder versus a control, because the brain actually lit up like a Christmas tree. There are receptors in the brain that are really malfunctioning, and we can see that.

So diagnostics is one example.

Another example is that Dr. Helen Mayberg, in the States, has done a lot of work and been able to identify through brain scanning those who would respond better to drug treatment versus those who would respond better to psychotherapy. When you got your diagnosis, wouldn't it be nice if you were able to be guided by some evidence that says you are a better candidate for a specific kind of therapy?

These are just some examples that I'm citing.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Thanks very much.

Dr. Aiken, you were more optimistic about the solutions, optimistic that we do have some available solutions that have been effective. With regard to public safety officers, I wonder if you could speak to some specific examples that perhaps the military has already canvassed.

11:25 a.m.

Director, Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research

Dr. Alice Aiken

I'll give you a very specific example that moves away from the technology aspect.

The military developed a very successful program called the road to mental readiness. You're all nodding, so you've heard about it. We were able to link the military developers of this program with researchers and spin it or adapt it for university students, for industry, and for the RCMP. That's more of a prevention program, so it starts right from the new recruit and continues pre-deployment, post-deployment, and all of those things. It takes people right through and helps to de-stigmatize mental health.

That's a really concrete example of taking something developed in the military for people living at the extreme end of the spectrum and bringing it back to the general population—the university and industry—but also to another group living at the extreme end of the spectrum, the RCMP.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Thank you for that.

Could I just ask, Dr. Merali, if in addition to imaging, there is work done in genomic sequencing as well?

11:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, The Royal’s Institute of Mental Health Research and the Canadian Depression Research and Intervention Network, As an Individual

Dr. Zul Merali

Absolutely.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Is that showing any...?

11:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, The Royal’s Institute of Mental Health Research and the Canadian Depression Research and Intervention Network, As an Individual

Dr. Zul Merali

Yes, it is starting to show. It has taken a while. What is interesting to see is that the genetic aberrations that you see in mental illness seem go with a whole bunch of genes simultaneously. It has not been a simple situation of one gene, one illness. That's what we were hoping; that's not the reality. There are a lot of genes that seem to be changing simultaneously, and it looks as though the manifestation of different mental illnesses stems from that. Only now are we beginning to be able to identify, through GWA studies, through big data—so it takes thousands of subjects—some genetic signatures that we're starting to now follow down towards an individual level. Right now it's a group level, but it is starting to look promising.

For a while I was very pessimistic about success in the genetic realm, and that's why we were investing in the imaging side, but there is value in the genetic side, and I think in the next few years we'll see much more development, including predication of suicide ideation and expression.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Mr. O'Toole.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Dr. Aiken and Dr. Merali, for your work. Your institutes both do very important work. I've had the good fortune of getting to know your work and both of you. I appreciate your passion.

Dr. Merali, I found it interesting. I've had the opportunity to see some of your imaging work, and I think I told you we had Dr. Ruth Lanius here from Western, who showed some images of a couple after a horrific car crash and trauma. Intuitively, for the members of the committee, I'm sure it's easy for us to understand how imaging can be used to show whether treatment has been effective or not by using the images.

You mentioned prevention. This used to come up. I met some injured veterans when I was the minister. Some of them said to me they shouldn't have been allowed to join the military, because of childhood trauma or a range of things. That always troubled me, because I like the fact that it's a volunteer force. Can the technology indicate who might be predisposed to OSI or mental trauma, and do you think it should be used?

11:30 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, The Royal’s Institute of Mental Health Research and the Canadian Depression Research and Intervention Network, As an Individual

Dr. Zul Merali

That's a very good question, and it's a loaded question. The answer is not very easy, but in the case of other illnesses, we do tests, for example, to look at your cholesterol level before you might have a heart attack so that you'll take corrective measures, both in exercise and statins, to prevent a cardiovascular event. If you have some markers that tell you that you are on the road, then you can take corrective measures.

Identifying those markers is not a sentence of any sort; it is just an indicator, like cholesterol. Because you have high cholesterol doesn't guarantee you're going to have a heart attack, but it's a warning sign. If we were able to develop those warning signs, they would be of immense value.

I think it's a continual spectrum. If you look at early indicators that may eventually lead to a condition that's an exacerbation of that biomarker, it will be very useful, because then we can begin to say you will benefit from this type of resiliency-building training, or whatever, and avert an adverse event. I think those biomarkers are very important not just for diagnostics and treatment but also for giving us some guidance as to how we can identify individuals who may need certain types of interventions early on to change the trajectory of how they're going to function later in life.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON

Thank you.

You mentioned resiliency training. Certainly, Dr. Aiken, you mentioned the road to mental readiness program and how that important work done by the military and the veterans community with your participation helped the military and was then shared with first responders and then redesigned somewhat to be used for other populations. Certainly, in the new government, several ministers have mandates for a national strategy or an approach for post-traumatic stress for first responders. That's why we're doing this important study.

How do you think CIMVHR, your institute, having brought together 41 universities and experts, could be used in that capacity? You've helped build a network together of leading people for certain uniformed services. I would be worried if another university or somebody suddenly tried to create exactly the same structure for a different type of uniformed service. Do you see CIMVHR as being about to fulfill a function wider than for those who serve in uniform in the Canadian Armed Forces? Do you see corrections, fire, and police as a potential mandate?

11:35 a.m.

Director, Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research

Dr. Alice Aiken

We've always had first responders as part of what we talk about with CIMVHR and at our conference we always have presentations on first responder research as well. It's definitely something that's in our sights and always has been. In fact, a lot of the researchers doing research on military and veterans populations are also doing research on first responder populations. It's the same people that we see doing the work, because they are experts in their area of research and they can focus in on a particular population.

Where we ran into a bit of a hiccup, though, was on the more political side of things. First responders don't see themselves as military and veterans, and military and veterans don't see themselves as first responders. They understand there is an overlap, but they don't see it as exactly parallel.

Have we built a mechanism that works extremely well? Yes, we really have. We've networked the universities and we have the research being done. For example, three years after we started, research on post-traumatic stress in Canadian veterans had increased by 400% over any other period of time since World War II. We know we're having that kind of effect by focusing on a specific population, and we've built a very effective mechanism.

However, what I realized at the meeting in January is that there are a lot of stakeholder groups for public safety who probably need a say in how a research institute moves forward for them. We're happy to share. If an institute were to start, we'd be happy to share whatever we have. If the public safety department decided they wanted their own, they could use our governance structure, our conference, our journal. Anything like that we're happy to share.

I did get the impression—Monsieur Picard will correct me if I'm wrong—that the groups there felt they needed their own institute focused on this, as we were focused on military and veterans health.