Evidence of meeting #143 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fee.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
As long as the fee gets paid, it doesn't matter where the money comes from. It gets looked after.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
My final question will be about the process. I'd like to have you explain how the process looks. Our next groups who will be testifying in the next hour are Elizabeth Fry, John Howard and the 7th Step Society. Do you have a supporter relationship with them? Do they ever intervene or assist individuals with the PBC process?
4:10 p.m.
Executive Director General, Parole Board of Canada
Yes, indeed, we do have a good relationship with those organizations. We do talk to them regularly about all kinds of business, including the record suspension program. Certainly, those organizations—John Howard, 7th Step, Elizabeth Fry Society—do often act as advocates for applicants, so they will often actually help the applicants fill out their applications and liaise with the Parole Board staff. They're very helpful.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
I have two and a half minutes left.
You had mentioned previously that there's a bit of a different strain between summary and indictable currently. Could you just, in two minutes or less, explain for us the process that you go through that takes six months for summary, and up to 12 months for indictable, and what you actually do, from application to granting?
4:10 p.m.
Executive Director General, Parole Board of Canada
I'll invite my colleague, the program expert, to do that.
4:10 p.m.
Director, Clemency and Record Suspensions, Parole Board of Canada
Thank you.
When we receive an application and we've determined that it is complete and eligible, we commence our investigation. In the case of summary convictions, the files are often less complex in nature. We do conduct, obviously, an investigation of conduct because it goes before a board member for a determination. In the case of indictable, there are more criteria in law under the Criminal Records Act, which we need to also ascertain. The board needs to be satisfied that's met. The investigations are more complex in nature and that's why they take longer, so we move those at a slower pace. We all consult—
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Sorry to interrupt, but do you actually then review the actual file?
4:10 p.m.
Director, Clemency and Record Suspensions, Parole Board of Canada
We do. We receive the criminal record and we receive the adjoining documentation that's required as part of the application. We may cause inquiries with criminal justice partners. We may need to reach back out to the applicant or their representative to gather more information. We prepare a summary and it goes to our board member, who will then make a determination. From that point on, the applicant is then notified if their record suspension is going to be ordered, or if there is a proposal to not order, we would go back and give them an opportunity to make representations to conduct a review of the concerns raised by the board, and then a final decision is made.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
When we talk about the cost of the application, it's supposed to be revenue neutral, or it was in 2012, so $631. If the costs were reduced the government would lose money, except for the fact that if that person were working and paying taxes, you could be recovering it. You could have lower revenue within one department, but in fact through income taxes that were generated because someone is in gainful employment, the government could actually end up in a net-positive situation. Is that right?
4:10 p.m.
Director General, Crime Prevention, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
I'll take that just because we had done some research on it. I can't remember the exact year, but approximately for every dollar spent on a pardon, just over $2 is saved for the reasons you mentioned.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
That's pretty significant, then. If we're looking at the barriers to people applying because of the fee, in fact, it would be beneficial to the government, not even looking at the social impacts but from a revenue standpoint.
The other question I have for you is one that came up from my colleague across the way, Mr. Eglinski, when we had Mr. Long here. The question was around why we don't just get rid of them all after five years. Why do we have to go through the process? I'm wondering if you could explain to us if that is even possible. Is there a difference between federal and provincial? Why is it so difficult in the application process? Even if there was a fee involved...what's involved? What are we missing here?
4:15 p.m.
Director, Clemency and Record Suspensions, Parole Board of Canada
I think there are a number of facets. Certainly what is in the national repository, we have that information at the federal government. In terms of summary convictions, there's no mandate to print individuals for those convictions, and those are scattered all around municipalities, territories and provinces. As we noted earlier, there is really no way to know where those are. As well, currently the statute is not written in order for any of those to be spent or erased after any given time.
Certainly, under the current CRA, we are required to receive those criminal records, those convictions, and then review and ensure the satisfaction of the sentence. Again, from our manual review, we're able to ascertain payment of convictions that are associated to different fines.
Does that address your question?
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Yes, and if I can go back again to one of Jim's questions about having to get the record locally, if you have no way of checking, how do you even know that someone has provided you with everything they're supposed to provide?
4:15 p.m.
Director, Clemency and Record Suspensions, Parole Board of Canada
We receive this at the time of application, and again, under the current CRA, we cause inquiries as part of our investigation. We get this at the front end, but then we continue to verify it through contacts with different criminal justice partners, their databases and other sources of information we can gather.
Certainly, the way the CRA is written, there are processes that allow for cessation of application in cases where there was information that perhaps might not have been ascertained at the time of a record suspension or a pardon having been awarded.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
The disconnect is, though, why is somebody having to go in and pay $25 to the local police force to get their criminal record check if you're checking anyway? It's not only the $631. It's also whatever they might have to pay locally.
I understand you're saying it's how it's written, but is there a way to streamline the process? Can you comment on that?
4:15 p.m.
Director, Clemency and Record Suspensions, Parole Board of Canada
In our experience, criminal justice partners are more likely to provide the information directly to the applicant. As was noted earlier, there is a small fee attached, or a fee—I shouldn't qualify the nature of fee—attached, and therefore, they're not likely to give it to us when we cause inquiries.
I think that would lend itself to perhaps some broader discussions at FTP tables in order to delve more into that.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Thank you, Chair.
I want to go back to pursue the whole process. You indicated that you review files, and depending on the file and whether it's summary or indictable, the seriousness of that file, you receive a copy of it. You basically read the investigation. You determine the seriousness of the file based on what the report says.
My question, though, relates to records retention policies. In all jurisdictions in this country, we have such policies, and if someone's applying for a pardon five and 10 years out, in a lot of those cases, especially in summary conviction offences, those records are gone from that individual organization. They're gone.
In that case, how do you make your determination and adjudicate those particular applications?
4:15 p.m.
Director, Clemency and Record Suspensions, Parole Board of Canada
As you mentioned, we receive a hard copy, and in cases where there would be no proof of conviction, we wouldn't have any legislative authority to try to order a records suspension. There would be nothing left to put separate and apart.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that there is still a record on CPIC, but the jurisdiction where they were convicted, that law enforcement agency, for example, if you're asking for the file for review, may no longer have that file. In that circumstance, how do you navigate that?
4:15 p.m.
Director, Clemency and Record Suspensions, Parole Board of Canada
I understand. In cases where the retention period has lapsed and, therefore, that court document or the police report is no longer available—
