Evidence of meeting #143 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fee.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Daryl Churney  Executive Director General, Parole Board of Canada
Jim Eglinski  Yellowhead, CPC
Brigitte Lavigne  Director, Clemency and Record Suspensions, Parole Board of Canada
Ruby Sahota  Brampton North, Lib.
Angela Connidis  Director General, Crime Prevention, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Louise Lafond  Registered Nurse, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
Catherine Latimer  Executive Director, John Howard Society of Canada
Rodney Small  Core Group Member, 7th Step Society of Canada

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Right.

4:15 p.m.

Director, Clemency and Record Suspensions, Parole Board of Canada

Brigitte Lavigne

—we would have to put that information before the board. Again, those convictions are historical in nature. When the board is looking at elements like conduct or other criteria of law, we're looking at current information as well, moving forward past the date of the conviction and the wait period.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

All three of you, obviously, would have an understanding of how the PBC and the whole application process works. Obviously, you have read the motion before the committee.

In your opinion, how can we accomplish what has been asked? Not the details, but really what you're saying is that some people can't afford record suspensions and it might impact their ability to move on in life and put this behind them and be able to rejoin society and contribute as they would need to. This is preventing that in some cases. They can't get a good job.

How would we navigate that? You're providing information to us now, saying in an ideal world here's what you would suggest we look at to remedy the issue that has been presented in this motion. Is there anything in both your experiences that would say here's something that would work that we should maybe consider?

4:20 p.m.

Executive Director General, Parole Board of Canada

Daryl Churney

Certainly I think one of the big issues again comes back to the cost borne by the applicant. That seems to be one of the largest impediments for achieving a record suspension. Certainly further to your study the government may wish to take a look at some kind of a subsidization arrangement again. Perhaps the record suspension program isn't a full cost recovery program, but that's obviously under the purview of the government to consider, subject to your advice.

I would suggest to the committee that cost and the time frames are major issues, in that people find waiting for five and 10 years to be an exceptionally long period of time for them to be able to move on. It is quite difficult because we see examples of people who are on the verge of some kind of employment opportunity, but they have another year to go, and they are asking for some kind of discretion or leniency from the board.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

In the seconds I have left, are you suggesting that maybe we should have a different scaling system, rather than a five- and 10-year scheme depending on the offence, but a scale within summary and a scale with indictable?

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Pierre Paul-Hus

Please be brief.

4:20 p.m.

Executive Director General, Parole Board of Canada

Daryl Churney

It's not really my place as a member of a tribunal to provide advice, but I would suggest that certainly could be contemplated.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Pierre Paul-Hus

Thank you.

Ms. Dabrusin, you have five minutes.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

I had a couple of questions. The first would be for Public Safety just because we've talked a lot about how this is a full recovery system on service fees.

Within the different types of programs we have, do we have any others that are full recovery?

4:20 p.m.

Director General, Crime Prevention, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Angela Connidis

We don't have very many programs like the Parole Board where we are doing that. This is the only full cost recovery one within Public Safety's realm that I'm aware of.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

I was just asking for Public Safety. I figured you couldn't comment on the rest of the system.

Mr. Churney, you commented you had done a study in 2017. One of the things people talked about was that the system as a whole was too onerous.

Had any studies or recommendations been prepared by the Parole Board as to how the system could be simplified for people who are applying?

4:20 p.m.

Executive Director General, Parole Board of Canada

Daryl Churney

No, not quite as such. We had done this study and that study was part of the government's broader review of the criminal justice system in which the government was looking at all the forums that took place over the last 10 years before the government came to power. That information has been provided to the government.

It was really more fact finding than attaching any particular recommendations to it. We simply provided what we'd heard from respondents who chose to participate.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Have there been any internal discussions as you're looking at it? People are saying this system is onerous and it's too complicated. Have there been any discussions as to this is one way we could simplify it?

I know you can't talk to us about the policy. That's why I'm trying to get to, if you're looking at the system, has anyone made a recommendation that you could streamline this piece, and it would make it a lot easier for applicants?

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director General, Parole Board of Canada

Daryl Churney

I can't really speak to the internal policy conversation of the government but I can say, from the board's perspective, that we are continually trying to look at what we can do within the jurisdiction and parameters that we exist with to make things easier for the applicant. There are a number of resources available online for the applicant, and we try to make sure those are up to date and current.

We are also taking a look to see whether we can explore something like an online application process for individuals. Everything is manual. That's, I would suggest, antiquated in some ways. We are in the 21st century. A lot of people do use computers and do run their lives on computers, so would there be a way for us to make the application process accessible online? We're starting to look at that. All of our IT services are provided by Correctional Service Canada, and therefore, anything we want to do we have to negotiate with CSC and determine the cost impact for that, and then find a source of funds to do that. That's one thing we're taking a look at.

We're also taking a look at internal mechanisms, such as the database the Parole Board uses, to manage the infrastructure of the program. Again, it's quite antiquated. It probably should be updated to something that's a little bit more current and expedient. Again, that's something we're looking at internally to see if that can help contribute to the process.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

I don't have much more time.

You referred to litigation in B.C. and Ontario, so you're now operating three different schemes.

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director General, Parole Board of Canada

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Is any one of them easier or cheaper for you to run—the B.C. plan, the Ontario plan or the other plan?

4:25 p.m.

Director, Clemency and Record Suspensions, Parole Board of Canada

Brigitte Lavigne

They're all the same cost because they're all subject to the same service fee. In terms of—

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

I know they're the same cost to the applicant. What I meant was internally, if you went with your B.C. system, is it easier for you or cheaper for you to run than...?

4:25 p.m.

Director, Clemency and Record Suspensions, Parole Board of Canada

Brigitte Lavigne

They have different criteria that we need to meet, so we are assessing different criteria depending on the scheme.

4:25 p.m.

Director General, Crime Prevention, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Angela Connidis

One of the differences was that prior to 2010, not all applications had to go before a board member. They could be dealt with administratively. When some of those applications now fall into that scheme, there may be some things that have to be done now that don't have to be done for those files.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Okay.

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director General, Parole Board of Canada

Daryl Churney

Yes, but I couldn't go so far as to say it only costs us x number of dollars to run this subcomponent of the program related to amendments before 2010.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Are there different discretions built into how it operates?

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director General, Parole Board of Canada