Public Safety Committee on Feb. 25th, 2019

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

As a committee vice-chair and a representative of the Conservatives, I clearly do not agree with my colleague's comment.

I go back to what Ms. Sahota said about the people crossing the border. I have been there three times. When you get there, you see clearly that crossing the border is illegal. Minister Blair said in the previous question period that crossing our border is an illegal act. We agree that the immigration process becomes irregular as a result, but the act of crossing the border is illegal.

That is why we call those people illegal immigrants, pure and simple. You are saying that they are fleeing persecution, but they are coming from the United States. Minister Blair has confirmed that the United States is a safe country. So they are not coming from a country where there is persecution.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I don't care to get involved in a legal interpretation as to one word or another. I tend to accept the Minister's interpretation of the distinction between “illegal” and “irregular”. I'm going to leave it at that.

I think that Ms. Damoff makes a very important point that words do matter. Unless people have a legal opinion that these irregular crossings are in fact illegal, I think they should stay with the wording that the Minister has been using.

With that, Mr. Motz, you have a few minutes left.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

My opinion doesn't change. They are still illegal border crossers. You indicated that they were fleeing persecution in the United States, and then in answer to one of the questions from committee members, you indicated that you considered the U.S. to be a safe third country, which is the conflict in itself. Your statements are confusing, to say the least.

I want to get to an issue that is certainly front and centre for many Canadians, and that is the whole issue of gangs and guns, and your mandate. Your mandate letter makes no mention of cracking down on guns or illegal weapons; all it says is that you're supposed to deal with handguns and assault weapons and get them off our streets. I don't know what an assault weapon is in Canada. I've never heard of it, and I've never seen one.

Can you tell the committee how many firearm-related crimes occurred in 2017 and 2018 by licensed firearm owners?

[Bill Blair]

I don't have that number.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

You don't know it. If you don't know the number, then why—

[Bill Blair]

I'm sure the number exists. I just don't have it.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Is it a huge number? We've been told by this government that you're evidence-based.

[Bill Blair]

Absolutely. Let me be clear. In my experience—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I'm not done with the question yet.

[Bill Blair]

Oh, I thought you had asked me a question.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

If you are asking Canadians and proposing the potential of a handgun ban, as you're going around now in what you call your consultations—which I will get to in a minute—how are you making any proposals when you have no evidence to support that there is a problem?

[Bill Blair]

Mr. Motz, I actually have a great deal of evidence.

In my experience, the overwhelming majority of lawful firearm owners in this country are law-abiding and responsible in their ownership. That has been my experience and the data will pull that out.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

It does prove that.

[Bill Blair]

However, also from my own personal experience—and I have a great deal of data that I'm aware of—unfortunately some of the firearms that belonged to or were a part of lawful firearm owners' collections do, in a number of ways, end up in the hands of people who would commit violent crimes with them.

Therefore, one of the things I'm looking at is how to keep those guns from getting into the hands of people who would commit violent crimes with them. As I'm sure you will acknowledge, there are a number of ways that can happen.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

You yourself have said that domestic-sourced firearms account for about half the violent gun crimes that occur in Toronto, as an example, yet Toronto's own statistics have proven that to be absolutely false. It's less than 6%.

[Bill Blair]

Mr. Motz, let me just tell you my own experience with it.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I'm not done asking the next question.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Motz, you are done.

I'm going to let Mr. Blair answer the question. I gave additional time to reflect the conversation between Mr. Paul-Hus and Ms. Damoff, and I'm going to let Mr. Blair finish his response. Then I'm going to go to Monsieur Picard.

Mr. Blair.

[Bill Blair]

I'll try to be brief.

During my time in the Toronto Police Service, both as the chief of detectives and then for 10 years as the chief of police, we made an effort to trace the origin of all guns that were used in crime in our city.

During that period of time, some 13 years, the evidence was very strong and fairly consistent. About 70% of the crime guns we came in possession of had been smuggled across the border. Also, because we traced the origin of those guns, we were able to determine if they were domestically sourced, if they had been brought legally into this country, purchased and acquired legally, and then ended up in the hands of criminals.

I can also tell you from my experience that, in a significant number of cases, there have been thefts of lawfully owned and possessed guns, and those guns have been subsequently used in criminal offences by people who resolve their disputes through violence, and there have been other means of diversion as well.

In my experience, about 70% were across the border, and 30% domestic. When we use the figure of 50%, we are relying on information. First of all, the current chief of police in Toronto says it's about 50%. I've also heard from the Regina police chief, Chief Evan Bray, who said that, in Saskatchewan, 50% of the firearms they seized were domestically sourced as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

Monsieur Picard, you have five minutes, please.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

I would like to go back to the issue of money laundering. First I want to highlight the work of the RCMP in investigating a hawala system in British Columbia. It is probably one of the most complicated systems when it comes to proving that money is being laundered. The system depends on the honour and the word of the people involved, which greatly reduces the possibility of following trails during an investigation.

Along these lines, another area is associated with money laundering that generates trails, but creates major headaches for those trying to penetrate its mysteries. I am talking about trusts and who owns them. In the context of money laundering, what is the minister doing about trusts ownership?

[Bill Blair]

I believe the issue you're referring to is beneficial ownership.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Sorry, my fault. Yes, it is.

[Bill Blair]

It can be referred to in a number of different ways, so I wanted to make sure I was answering the question you were actually posing.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Yes, it is.