Evidence of meeting #150 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was safe.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gilles Michaud  Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Ruby Sahota  Brampton North, Lib.
Malcolm Brown  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Jim Eglinski  Yellowhead, CPC
David Vigneault  Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Jennifer Oades  Chairperson, Parole Board of Canada
Bill Blair  Minister of Border Security and Organized Crime Reduction
Tina Namiesniowski  Executive Vice-President, Canada Border Services Agency

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Ladies and gentlemen, I see we have quorum. It is 3:30 and we are now ready to commence the 150th meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Minister Goodale.

February 25th, 2019 / 3:30 p.m.

Regina—Wascana Saskatchewan

Liberal

Ralph Goodale LiberalMinister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. Good afternoon. It's good to be back with you once again to present the supplementary estimates (B) for the Public Safety portfolio, along with the 2019-20 interim estimates.

As this committee is aware, we are in the second year of a two-year pilot test of this vehicle called the interim estimates. That process will help ensure continuous operations for my portfolio, authorizing interim spending beginning April 1 until the main estimates full supply is approved by Parliament in June.

I am very pleased to be joined by the full complement of officials here today representing not only the department, but all of the agencies that are a part of the portfolio, and I welcome their assistance in dealing with the questions from members of the committee.

The men and women of this portfolio perform the Herculean task of keeping our country and our communities safe and secure. They deserve, I believe, our deepest thanks for carrying out a very ambitious public safety agenda over the last number of months and years.

I thank members of this committee for your scrutiny and your advice as that agenda has rolled forward over the last three years. We've introduced transformational changes to Canada's public safety environment, from a new national security framework to a new cannabis regime, a bold new corrections model, practical changes to tackle the problems posed in our communities by guns and gangs, and much more. We still have a lot of work ahead.

The supplementary estimates will help us make needed funding adjustments to tackle the work. Portfolio-wide, total authorities sought in supplementary estimates (B) for 2018-19 would result in a net increase of $24.3 million over the authorities as they exist to date. That represents a 0.2% increase over the total authorities provided through main and supplementary estimates so far this year. That brings us to roughly $10.8 billion in total funding approvals to date for the Public Safety portfolio and all the agencies within it—that is, should these estimates be approved.

There are a few key changes to appropriations that I would like to highlight. One of those is the addition of $9.9 million for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, which will be used to compensate members for injuries received in the performance of their duties. Every day, these members put their lives on the line to protect our own, and the government must ensure we're there for them as well when they need us.

The funding complements the Government of Canada's memorial grant program for first responders, a new grant program that we introduced last year. I thank the committee for its support of that program when it was presented. The memorial grant program recognizes the service and sacrifice of first responders who die as a direct result of carrying out their duties. Through the memorial grant program, families of first responders—that is, police, firefighters and paramedics, including volunteers, reservists and auxiliary members—who lose a loved one as a direct result of their duties will receive a one-time lump sum tax-free payment of $300,000. That program took effect on April 1, 2018. I am very pleased to say that it's now being implemented across the country in co-operation with the provinces and territories.

You might ask, why would the provinces and territories be involved? It's because some of their social services legislation, under their provincial jurisdiction, has offset or clawback provisions written into it, and the provinces need to give us the assurance that they will not use their provincial legislation in any way to diminish the federal grant. All of the provinces are anxious to collaborate and co-operate in that endeavour. We're going through the necessary steps with each province to make sure that is the case.

I'll also highlight that there is $3.8 million in these estimates that will be transferred to the Communications Security Establishment for the transfer of control and responsibility for the Canadian Cyber Incident Response Centre. That transfer began in October, to become part of the new Canadian cybersecurity centre.

The cyber centre is a key change to our security apparatus in Canada. It brings operational security experts from across the entire Government of Canada under one roof for dealing with cyber issues. In line with the new cybersecurity strategy, the launch of the cybersecurity centre represents a shift to a more unified approach to cybersecurity in the country. I know we'll all be hearing a lot more from the centre in the year to come. I know you'll continue to work closely with them in your current study of cybersecurity in the financial sector.

Mr. Chair, I think it would now be appropriate to turn to the 2019-20 interim estimates, to help us focus on the coming year. Ratification by Parliament of these interim estimates will result in initial funding approvals of $2.259 billion for the Public Safety portfolio for the fiscal year 2019-20 to cover the first three months of operations. As I've noted, the detailed funding proposed will be presented to Parliament for consideration in the main estimates in April.

In comparison with the 2018-19 interim estimates, most portfolio organizations are at very similar funding levels, with the exception of Public Safety Canada—that is, the department itself. Allow me to explain that briefly. The decrease of $104.6 million in the interim estimates for Public Safety is mostly explained by the expiry of the temporary funding for the disaster financial assistance arrangements. My department is currently working with central agencies to secure the necessary funding levels for 2019-20 and beyond in support of its obligations under the DFAA.

Mr. Chair, as I've highlighted, we're implementing extraordinary changes to Canada's public safety environment. I want to thank all of you once again for the important role that this committee plays in scrutinizing the issues and providing advice. I know my colleague Minister Blair will have more to add on these various topics this afternoon, particularly with respect to a strong and effective border.

As always, I would be happy to try to do my best to answer your questions about these estimates.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Minister Goodale.

Before I turn to questions, I would just caution members. I know there's always great enthusiasm when having a minister before a committee. Would you humour the chair and keep your questions somewhat relevant to the interim estimates that are being studied.

Ms. Damoff.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

Thanks, Chair.

Minister, it's always great to have you here, along with your very able officials. Thank you for taking the time to join us this afternoon.

On Friday, media reported that the Senate Standing Committee on National Security and Defence had delayed consideration of crucial government legislation on national security, as well as firearms, in order to hold meetings on the number of ministers who had held the Veterans Affairs portfolio.

Dr. Stephanie Carvin, an expert in national security at Carleton University, tweeted on Friday with regard to the delay, and this is her tweet:

Not great, @SenateCA. You came to work late and you need to get the job done and pass #C59. Failure to do so will mean @NoFlyListKids will go years without redress, CSIS will not have a legal basis to store datasets crucial for ops and CSE will not have powers to protect Canada.

Are you concerned about Bill C-59, our national security legislation, as well as Bill C-71, which included really important protections for survivors of intimate partner violence, being delayed in the Senate?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

I consider both Bill C-71 and Bill C-59 to be vital pieces of legislation that need to receive the appropriate parliamentary attention as quickly as possible. I want to thank this committee for dealing with both of those items of legislation in a very thorough way. There was no compromise on your scrutiny. You examined the issues very carefully. You made a number of recommendations for changes in the legislation and sent them back to the House in a timely way. I thank this committee for that work. Now, both of those issues are before the Senate.

I have had the opportunity to speak with a number of senators about the very heavy agenda that is before them, including Bill C-71 and Bill C-59. They do seem to be optimistic that in the time they have available between now and the summer they will be able to deal with the legislation in a full and final way.

I share the belief that this legislation is vital. It contains very important measures, such as the extensive background checks that you referred to in Bill C-71, which I believe has received support across all party lines.

In Bill C-59, issues that you mentioned included the ability of CSIS to deal properly with bulk datasets, the new authorities that are provided to the Communications Security Establishment, as well as the creation of a new national security and intelligence review agency to get out of these silos for reviewing our security intelligence organizations and to have one review agency that has full jurisdiction to examine any issue in any department or agency of the Government of Canada and follow the evidence wherever it may go.

There's a lot more to the legislation than that, but those are really critical innovations in the law, and it is important for the legislation to receive careful and timely consideration. The communications that I have heard from the Senate would lead me to believe that they are working diligently on the issues before them and are confident that they will be able to discharge their parliamentary duties in a timely way, and I look forward to that.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

Thank you, Minister.

I suspect most Canadians just assume that because the legislation was through the House it has been passed. They don't realize that it hasn't received royal assent yet.

My next question has to do with a study that we're conducting right now on cybersecurity. Something that's come up quite a bit is the development of the 5G network. As you know, some of our Five Eyes partners have already made the decision to prevent Huawei from participating in the development of this network.

I wonder if you could just update us on when we can expect the government to make a decision in this regard.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

The issue is under very careful review, Ms. Damoff.

I don't think that today I can predict a precise timeline. However, I can tell you that all of the engaged departments and agencies of the Government of Canada are assessing this situation with great care and great rigour.

The global movement from what we're all familiar with under 4G to this bold new world of 5G is a tremendous advancement in science and innovation. With the kinds of benefits that 5G technology can hold for our society, for the economy, for the way we live and for the success we have as a country, the potential is simply enormous. At the same time, Canadians want to be sure that the supply chain that goes into that new technology will be safe, sound and secure.

We're not examining one particular company here or one particular country. It is the entire range of supply chain possibilities and potentialities. We want Canadians to have all the advantages of 5G, and we want the system to be safe and secure from end to end. We are doing our very best to ensure both of those objectives.

The departments of the Government of Canada are working very carefully together to make sure that we get to the very best possible decision that reflects the best Canadian vital interests, and of course in that process we will not compromise on safety or security.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have the floor for seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you for being here today.

Mr. Minister, the RCMP has a sizeable operating budget. There are lot of resources at your service and at the service of Canadians.

After you heard Jody Wilson-Raybould say in Cabinet, on Tuesday, that she had felt pressure to intervene in the prosecution against SNC-Lavalin, did you pass that information on to the RCMP?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

Mr. Chairman, the RCMP is a completely independent policing organization. It never consults with me about when or whether to launch an investigation. It makes that determination entirely on its own, and that is exactly as it should be.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Mr. Michaud, the RCMP has a national division that specializes in corruption investigations. Following the allegations that came out in The Globe and Mail on February 7, did your division begin an investigation into them? Is that normal procedure?

3:45 p.m.

D/Commr Gilles Michaud Deputy Commissioner, Federal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

We never comment on active cases, and we do not confirm or…

to deny any ongoing criminal investigation.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Thank you, Mr. Michaud.

Mr. Goodale, in your caucus meetings…

Last week, the Clerk of the Privy Council appeared before the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. He mentioned that the possibility of a deferred prosecution agreement for SNC-Lavalin never came up in Cabinet. Is the Clerk of the Privy Council correct?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

Could you be a little more precise? Something got lost in the translation, Mr. Paul-Hus.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I think what happened was that it was translated as “caucus meetings”, when in fact it was cabinet meetings. When the translation came through, that's what it came through as.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

Yes, they did say “caucus” in the translation.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

He means cabinet.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

Let me start my question again.

On the possibility that SNC-Lavalin had a deferred prosecution agreement, the Clerk of the Privy Council said that the matter never came up in Cabinet, ever.

Is the Clerk of the Privy Council correct?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

Mr. Paul-Hus, never in—

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Excuse me.

Ms. Dabrusin.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Mr. Chair, you asked us to make sure that we were staying on the estimates. I'm wondering if, perhaps, I could get some guidance as to how this is all connected.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Regrettably, the first questions had virtually nothing to do with the estimates. Unfortunately, when that precedent is set, the chair himself is kind of compromised.

If the questions on the government side have little or nothing to do with the estimates, it's hard for me to hold the opposition's feet to the fire when they ask questions that have nothing to do with the estimates.

Regrettably, I'm going to have to let Mr. Paul-Hus proceed.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

If I could answer that question, Mr. Chair, to the best of my knowledge, never in 45 years have I ever violated a confidence of the Queen’s Privy Council or talked about the agenda of a cabinet meeting.

The clerk's remarks will need to stand on their own.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC

It is just that the Clerk of the Privy Council took the opportunity to make a statement about Cabinet meetings at the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. That is why I wanted to check with you whether Mr. Wernick gave the correct information.

Now I want to talk about this case about the Canadians who have fought with the group called the Islamic State. It is important to know whether we have the money we need to deal with the matter involving those people. This is about budgets, colleagues. I would like an update on the matter, Mr. Minister.

Could you also tell us about Mr. Wernick’s comment last week that raises grave concern? Mr. Michaud and Mr. Vigneault can answer too. I would like to know whether Canadians are concerned by the fact that combatants from the group called the Islamic State are back in Canada. What measures have been put in place to deal with this matter appropriately? Are the resources sufficient to address it? Is the threat of murder during the election campaign a credible one, or is the Clerk of the Privy Council making it up?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

On the latter point, Mr. Paul-Hus, as you will have noticed, about a month or so ago, on the topic of foreign interference in Canadian elections or some kind of disturbance during the election process that would undermine or attack our democracy, we announced a new all-of-government strategy for how we will deal with those issues.

The Minister of Democratic Institutions, Minister Gould, is the minister responsible for that set of initiatives, but it does include very substantial funding, part of it from our cyber envelope. The whole objective here is to have a system in place that has public credibility if there is an untoward interference in democracy detected by our police or security agencies. They will inform the Government of Canada, and the appropriate officials within the Government of Canada will inform Canadians.