Evidence of meeting #151 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Naaman Sugrue
Michele Mosca  Director, Quantum-Safe Canada
Brian O'Higgins  Chair, Quantum-Safe Canada
Christopher Parsons  Research Associate, Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy, University of Toronto, Citizen Lab
Karen McCrimmon  Kanata—Carleton, Lib.
Jim Eglinski  Yellowhead, CPC
Normand Lafrenière  President, Canadian Association of Mutual Insurance Companies
Steve Masnyk  Principal, SkyBridge Strategies

5:25 p.m.

Kanata—Carleton, Lib.

Karen McCrimmon

You're just saying that you're not an attractive target.

5:25 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Mutual Insurance Companies

Normand Lafrenière

We are less so.

5:25 p.m.

Kanata—Carleton, Lib.

Karen McCrimmon

Okay. That's good.

5:25 p.m.

Principal, SkyBridge Strategies

Steve Masnyk

Unless somebody wants to know how many washrooms you have in your basement.... I'm sure somebody would find that very valuable, but....

5:25 p.m.

Kanata—Carleton, Lib.

Karen McCrimmon

We'll put the cybersecurity piece of this aside, then, and talk about open banking. It's important not to conflate the two.

The finance department just held some consultations. Were you part of that?

5:25 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Mutual Insurance Companies

5:25 p.m.

Kanata—Carleton, Lib.

Karen McCrimmon

Did you give testimony? I wish we had gotten it—

5:25 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Mutual Insurance Companies

Normand Lafrenière

We did not give testimony. We participated in the consultations.

5:25 p.m.

Kanata—Carleton, Lib.

Karen McCrimmon

I wish we had received a copy of that. That would have been handy. We would have been better placed to have a real discussion about the challenges of open banking. I've done some research, but only a little.

Your organization, CAMIC, is having a hard time with this open banking. You think there are significant issues with it.

5:25 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Mutual Insurance Companies

Normand Lafrenière

Well, the issue that affects insurance companies.... There is a wall between banks and insurance companies. As you may know, going back to the four pillars, there has been a wall maintained between the banks and the insurance companies. A bank cannot sell insurance from the bank. They can have an organization selling insurance, but it's completely separate from the bank. The bank's data cannot be shared with that organization. The purpose of it is to prevent coercion, if I can put it that way—banks forcing customers to buy their product at the time they're granting a loan. So these two are separated, not to prevent banks from getting into the insurance business, but they have to have separate organizations and not share data between the two.

Through these fintechs, that wall would just disappear. You would have the possibility of a bank sharing data with a fintech, and that fintech could very well share data with a third organization, be it an insurance company or whatever. Therefore, the separation or the wall between the two would just disappear.

5:25 p.m.

Kanata—Carleton, Lib.

Karen McCrimmon

I'm having a hard time understanding why CAMIC is opposed to it but the Insurance Brokers Association of Canada is not. You must see there's a piece of this puzzle we're missing.

5:30 p.m.

Principal, SkyBridge Strategies

Steve Masnyk

Madame McCrimmon, CAMIC is not opposed to it. CAMIC is saying that there need to be parameters and a framework that protect the privacy rights and extend the privacy standards of banks and insurance companies to these third parties or fintechs. CAMIC is not opposed to it. The discussion should be guided by some principles, in order for the end result to have this framework in place.

5:30 p.m.

Kanata—Carleton, Lib.

Karen McCrimmon

Okay, but wouldn't the insurance brokers feel exactly the same way?

5:30 p.m.

Principal, SkyBridge Strategies

Steve Masnyk

I don't know. I don't speak for them.

5:30 p.m.

Kanata—Carleton, Lib.

Karen McCrimmon

The latest article said that the brokers and the mutuals are split on the tactics, on whether to support open banking or not.

5:30 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Mutual Insurance Companies

Normand Lafrenière

We're not necessarily opposed to open banking. We're saying that there should be parameters surrounding that.

5:30 p.m.

Kanata—Carleton, Lib.

5:30 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Mutual Insurance Companies

Normand Lafrenière

On top of that, there is a wall between the banks and the insurance companies. Under the new system, under open banking, we would like that wall to be maintained.

5:30 p.m.

Kanata—Carleton, Lib.

Karen McCrimmon

You obviously have some concerns that the Insurance Brokers Association of Canada doesn't have.

5:30 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Mutual Insurance Companies

Normand Lafrenière

That may be so.

5:30 p.m.

Kanata—Carleton, Lib.

Karen McCrimmon

That's the thing. It would be really nice if we could get things in advance—

5:30 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Mutual Insurance Companies

5:30 p.m.

Kanata—Carleton, Lib.

Karen McCrimmon

—so we can study and have the questions ready for you.

Let's talk about open banking. Do you not think there are ways we could mitigate those risks, or are you just concerned that we're not aware of all the risks?

5:30 p.m.

Principal, SkyBridge Strategies

Steve Masnyk

We believe the open banking concept exposes cyber risk and cyber-hacking to a degree that's a lot larger than the current regime allows or permits. As I said, banks spend a lot of money on privacy standards and even they get hacked, so how about these new entrants, fintechs, that would likely spend very little compared to the banks or the insurance companies? Public policy-makers, such as you, need to keep that in mind when devising public policy on this. That's really the issue we are raising.

5:30 p.m.

Kanata—Carleton, Lib.

Karen McCrimmon

Okay.

I liked what you had to say about full and informed consent. How do we improve that? What approaches are available to us?