Evidence of meeting #157 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was security.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark Ryland  Director, Office of the Chief Information Officer, Amazon Web Services, Inc.
Richard Fadden  As an Individual
Steve Drennan  Director, Cybersecurity, ADGA Group
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Naaman Sugrue

4:30 p.m.

As an Individual

Richard Fadden

Part of the problem is you can't ignore Russia and China. We can't ignore those things that you just listed. I think we ignore international terrorist groups at our own cost. We have a whole bunch of civil society groups that muck around with cyber. I could probably go on, but the truth is we can't ignore any of them.

That's why I think there needs to be more collaboration, more sharing and more efforts to get us to a point that one of your other members suggested. We need to try to get ahead of the problem more than we have in the past. I don't have an answer except to say that while you may well be right in this six-month period, maybe in the next six-month period things are going to shift. We need to be fleet of foot. Again, after working for government for 40 years, I can say that's not one of our strong suits. It's true of governments generally, but I think we need to be fleeter than we have been to deal with all of the topics you're talking about.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Picard.

Before I suspend, I just want to thank our witnesses. Usually “fleet” and “government” don't go in the same sentence.

With that, we're going to suspend for a minute or two. Thank you for your presentations.

4:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Richard Fadden

It was a pleasure.

4:35 p.m.

Director, Office of the Chief Information Officer, Amazon Web Services, Inc.

Mark Ryland

Thank you.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

The meeting is suspended.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

We'll manoeuvre around the vote call at 5:30. We'll probably stop around 5:20, as opposed to 5:30. I'll stretch it as far as I can.

With that, we're back on and I'll ask Mr. Drennan for his presentation.

It's for 10 minutes. If you look up, I'll give you an idea of when you're getting close to the 10-minute mark.

Thank you, Mr. Drennan for appearing.

April 10th, 2019 / 4:35 p.m.

Steve Drennan Director, Cybersecurity, ADGA Group

Thank you. I am Steve Drennan and I'm pleased to be here today representing myself and ADGA in the cybersecurity domain and financial sector in Canada. Thank you for the invitation to provide testimony to the public safety committee at the House of Commons today and for all of your time.

For a bit of background, ADGA is a one hundred per cent Canadian company that has delivered strategic consulting, professional services and world-class technology in defence, security and enterprise computing for over 50 years. It provides high-end solutions, engineering and staffing in the government and commercial spaces. ADGA has a lot of insight, given all of this, and expertise into domains such as cybersecurity. ADGA also has strong views, as do I, on coast-to-coast security requirements and evolution and on our being abreast of the landscape and strategic partners. ADGA has a strong converged security capability with lots of cyber assessment design and compliance background. That's just to give you a feel of where I'm coming from today.

From reviewing previous testimony online, I saw a theme that the committee already had a lot of feedback on cyber-attacks, challenges, ranges and faults in the domain. Given all of that, I thought I'd focus today on cybersecurity solutions. There isn't a silver bullet to it, but there is a lot of capability that can be deployed on scale and a lot of other parts that can be developed to really increase what we do and strengthen the Canadian financial sector.

I like to think of it as critical infrastructure. You probably think of power stations and dams and classified systems as critical infrastructure, but the financial sector certainly is critical infrastructure. It's one large interdependent system that ranges across lots of different entities, like the Bank of Canada, Payments Canada, Interac—who I know were presenting—the Receiver General, merchants, small and large commercial entities and also consumers. Those are a lot of end points. There are a lot of things that can go wrong there. It's all the data, too, that is in transit and in storage. If you've been hearing and thinking about one network, one piece or one solution, it's not the whole story.

There's a shift occurring in cyber. It's shifting to socio-political attacks and brand manipulation, along with small and large volume financial attacks. Given what's at stake and the ability of cyber criminals to hide, obfuscate, and launch attacks on a non-stop basis, Canada needs to have an updated approach to cyber defence in the financial sector. The days of hiding behind walls, actual walls or firewalls, are past. It's a very interconnected space out there.

It's important to understand the adversary too. I think you've been well briefed on that, but cybercriminals and nation states have massive sets of resources. They'd be a very large country by GDP if all the cybercriminals put their wealth together. They are often physically unreachable because of where they come from.

One stat, a brief example, and I won't get into too many, from a recent Mandiant report—Mandiant is the cyber arm of FireEye, one of our strategic partners—is that the global median dwell time is 101 days. Dwell means the time that malware lives in a network until it's found and stopped. Just think about that for a second. That's an incredible amount of time for something to be sitting there exfiltrating and taking data before it's even found. Sometimes it goes up to 2,000 days before it's found. While the cyber problem is complex, it can be tackled in a way that is simplified for users, merchants, businesses and banking organizations. That's what I want to focus on today, that is, on some of the ways we can address this.

I'll focus on cyber solution themes that can address large-scale cyber-threats to the Canadian financial sector. Theme one that I'd like to go over is what I call “convergence of cyber data and protection capability”. Think of this as next generation solutions that could be deployed on scale for everyone to use and take advantage of. The concept is that one organization could actually lead this effort and put this capability in a central location so that it would be turned on for all of the entities I was just speaking about—everything we've been thinking about.

There's really fantastic new technology. One of them is linking ideas around centralized artificial intelligence, machine learning, advanced analytics, threat hunting—if you haven't heard about that, you can ask me questions about it later—and security orchestration. You can actually create semi-automatic cybersecurity detection and response. It can be fairly automated. Sometimes you do want somebody to be able to make decisions on key points and react when you sense a cyber-threat, especially if you're shutting down part of a network.

Smart buildings and networks can also be a part of this. It's not just green. Green is good, but when you introduce all kinds of Internet of things sensors, you're introducing a whole bunch of data, and that data can then be compromised. If we have an ability to sense across the physical data—operational data, sometimes called OT data, and the IoT data—we can have solutions that can better sense when there's a problem. For instance, if there's an environmental problem or an attack against a building or data centre, you'd probably want to know about that in the cyber-world and be able to respond to it. Today it's not very merged, but it can be.

There's the notion of moving forward on cyber-active defence or even offence, and that is linked to legislation and what the rules are. When you know you're being probed and attacked, the ability to respond to it, to determine where it is and to shut it down to at least protect yourself, is a very important capability.

The securing of domain name service, which is at the heart of the Internet, has standards around it called DNSSEC and others. That's really important because, if you can't trust your address resolution and where you're going to for data, that's really important.

Cyber-threat intelligence, which we touched on earlier, is really interesting because it can be done vertically. You could have just Canadian data and banking information, so you would see trends in attacks in the Canadian market space, and you'd be seeing them before they hit most of your end points, and then you'd be able to react to it in advance. You'd be able to make decisions and do updates before it became a widespread attack. That could be zero-day attacks or APT attacks, but the ability to see and respond before they become a problem is very important.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Excuse me, Mr. Drennan. The antiquated system that we have around here is intruding into a very impressive presentation on cybersecurity. I'm told we have.... Is it not 15 minutes?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Don't use ParlVu.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Initially I thought it was a quorum call, so I didn't say anything, but then the time was running, but it's not. We're going to leave it as a quorum call.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

You could save yourself 45 seconds by looking at ourcommons.ca instead of ParlVu. You get a direct feed that way.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I'm having what he looks at.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

You're looking at the wrong thing. Get faster.

4:45 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Naaman Sugrue

I'm looking at both.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Okay, we just blew 45 seconds. I apologize for that.

Thank you, Mr. Drennan, for your patience and understanding. Go ahead.

4:45 p.m.

Director, Cybersecurity, ADGA Group

Steve Drennan

Thank you.

On the last point about capability, something that could be introduced on scale, as we were talking about in this theme, could be supply-chain and life-cycle management. CSE, the Communications Security Establishment, which also has the cyber centre, used to run a program called the “evaluated products list”.

When we talk about Huawei, people have issues and we talk about them. We have to think about everything that gets introduced, all the software that's built—it's often virtualized and put in the cloud—the hardware and the chips. Where do the chips get manufactured? Where do they come from? You can have a complete cradle-to-grave program so that you evaluate that equipment and that software so that you know you can trust it. The government is the right entity to be able to manage that program.

The second theme I'd like to go over is leveraging a secure public cloud. I think the speaker before me was from AWS, so I'm sure you heard plenty on it. I'm here to say, too, that it's a good idea. When you're trying to bring all of these different groups together, one of the best ways to do that is with a secure Canadian public cloud, and I think we need to start thinking more about that. I know a number of banking entities that are looking at moving that way.

When you have networks inside, that's a private cloud, or a hybrid cloud as you move out to the public cloud, but leveraging a secure public cloud on scale is really important because that would be a great way for the whole community and all of those consumers to speak to each other. If you set up the right security, and policies and filters, everybody will have the same security. There are operators who have true failover within Canada, so if you have a failure, which you have to expect and count on, then, when you have disaster recovery, it stays within Canada. That's really important for the residency and custodianship of the data itself.

Cyber-agility is a piece that's really important here. It lets you move and launch new applications.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

You have one minute left.

4:45 p.m.

Director, Cybersecurity, ADGA Group

Steve Drennan

All right; I'll move faster. The third theme would be about establishing a lot more trust around critical data. The banking and key banking groups could actually become the trusted single source for registration, authentication and credentials.

My fourth theme is about user awareness. Let's not lose sight that our weakest link is still the user. We could have more specific mandates and more training so that people are more aware of what to click on, what's good behaviour, what's good hygiene.

In conclusion, there are next-generation cyber solutions on scale that can be used to stabilize and empower the financial community, but it's going to take the right funding and drive to make that happen.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Drennan.

Colleagues, we have about a half an hour. If I go with seven-minute rounds, that will pretty well use up the half hour. If I drop it to six-minute rounds, I could get one more question in. Is that fine?

4:50 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Okay, we'll have a six-minute round. We'll have Ms. Dabrusin, please.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Thank you.

I wanted to start with your fourth theme because that's something that has really caught my attention since the beginning of our hearings when someone talked about having a really secure system delivering information between two cardboard boxes, and the individuals at either end being the cardboard boxes. When you were talking about user-awareness, I know that you didn't get a chance to finish what you were going to say about that, but perhaps you could talk more about it now. What are the specific things we could do better as a government and for public awareness, and how do we increase cybersecurity, cyber hygiene, whatever we call it?

4:50 p.m.

Director, Cybersecurity, ADGA Group

Steve Drennan

Good. I'm glad I get to talk more about it. I don't think there are a lot of standards. When I look at the Treasury Board guidelines and MITS and its requirements, it's not very clear. It doesn't really define what you have to do to train users and to provide a lot of cyber guidance. It's a bit passive. We have our cyber-safe websites. We have places people can go to learn, but are we actively promoting enough information? We could have more campaigns. We could have more learning through games and monthly meetings and themes to raise an awareness. I'll take one example on spear phishing. Has that been well covered here?

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

I don't believe so.

4:50 p.m.

Director, Cybersecurity, ADGA Group

Steve Drennan

Has phishing been covered?