Public Safety Committee on May 12th, 2016

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Good morning. Thank you.

My name is Georgina Jolibois. I'm the member for Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River riding. I have various experiences in working with first responders from the RCMP, nurses, doctors, the local fire department, and the wildfire department.

Before I begin, I want to thank them for the work that they do. They are a remarkable group of people across the province of Saskatchewan who provide supportive services to their members, to the staff, including their families, and they keep our communities safe.

That fire that you were speaking about in Fort McMurray is close to the province of Saskatchewan's border, and it is worrisome for the province of Saskatchewan. It affects communities like La Loche, the Clearwater River Dene Nation, Carson Lake, and Black Point. I'm hoping that this discussion will help the province to come up with a really good plan to fight fires and put action on the fire.

January 22 was a bad day in La Loche. I got to observe up close the effects of PTSD on RCMP officers, the local fire department, nurses, doctors, other health care staff, and provincial service providers. What I noticed is that the RCMP have significant resources available to their members to help them deal with PTSD. At the provincial level, the health care staff and the ambulatory care staff have some resources available to them, but the local fire department and the reserve local fire department do not have as many resources to assist them with debriefing and counselling as other areas have.

The strategy is wonderful. Information is significant, but how can we, from the national level, ensure that the provinces, the municipalities, and the reserves get the same kind of support for their first responders?

[Paul Boissonneault]

Your point is absolutely well taken. Over 86% of the fire services across this country are volunteer and/or composite-based. Many of those resources that you speak of are often associated with financial challenges as well as the capabilities to deal with things. My neighbouring municipality is Six Nations, which is under federal jurisdiction for fire services, and I can tell you that oftentimes they are challenged for the appropriate minimum fire protection standards that their neighbouring municipalities have as a result of their tax bases.

The strategy speaks to a necessity of best practices that can be employed throughout, from the smallest fire department to the largest fire department in scale and scope and everything in between. Establishing those pillars and making sure that we have a proper action plan will help get the assistance there.

If you were in one of those small communities trying to find out where to get help, maybe some of the larger fire departments that have a critical instance stress management team or have a policy on debriefing can provide some assistance, but again, those are only as good as the resources they have available. Right now there are a significant number of fire departments that do not have the resources that are needed.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Certainly in my riding, I see the gaps for first responders that exist in the fire departments for municipalities, reserves, and at the provincial level. From the federal level, again, other information available to first responders is significant, but how can we ensure that the emotional support, counselling services, and debriefing sessions are made available to municipalities, local fire departments, the reserves, the wildfire management teams, and the health care staff? I'm really curious as to how we can make this occur.

[Scott Marks]

As we go forward and look at the different options that become available, what you're saying is absolutely true. It not only exists within mental health wellness, it similarly affects those same communities sometimes in public health initiatives. In Saskatchewan a program was initiated via Internet and using Skype to actually assess patients at first nations communities and different things.

I'm not suggesting that we know the way we have to go, but there's no question that what you're talking about will be extreme challenges within those more remote communities. We've already experienced some of that with regard to training for public safety initiatives. Part of what we're suggesting is that the national strategy will give us some ideas on how to do that. It may be that we create some outreach teams that go into remote communities and certainly build on the training and education component. It may be that down the road we rely on some components of self-help through Internet and other electronic means like that.

That's why looking at best practices, looking at the education components as we go forward, I think will be the key to developing the kind of assistance that will be required in the remote communities.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Going back to the framework, with regard to first nations and reserves across Canada, right now we are dealing with wildfires throughout the whole northern part of Canada. In the reserves we've lost lives because of the local fire department not being available.

How can we ensure from the federal level a working framework for municipalities or the provinces to assist the reserves to make sure that the local fire department is available?

[Paul Boissonneault]

To that very question, I can speak to the fact that the Aboriginal Firefighters Association of Canada has representation from all first nations and aboriginal communities across Canada. Their fire chiefs, and those who are reporting challenges within their communities, have representation on our national advisory council.

I would love to say that there is a magic solution. If I had it on paper, I would hand it out here today: here's a comprehensive plan, one that will work and that will be perfect. But we don't have that. The collaboration piece that I speak of, ensuring that we have the right advisory people with the right members of government, stakeholders, advisers, and academics to find this evidence-based research in the five-step process, will help us get there. It's also about inclusiveness, and their understanding that on the challenges you speak of—small communities, lack of resources, lack of funding—they will provide the information that gets propelled through our organization, through tables such as these, to help find solutions and ways forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you.

Mr. Spengemann.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Boissonneault, Mr. Marks, thank you both for being here. Thank you for your service and your counsel. You come to us at a time when our hearts and minds are with the people of Alberta, and specifically Fort McMurray. Our gratitude goes out to your colleagues in the field who are fighting the fires there and of course anywhere across the country.

You've given us some very sobering and disturbing numbers. If I'm right, you told us there were 45 suicides between last year and today, that up to 35% of your colleagues are potentially suffering from PTSD, and that more than half of your colleagues will not seek treatment. I think I'll use my time allotment and line of questioning to really bring out the human element of the issue that we're dealing with.

I'm wondering if you would take us into the fire hall and just give us a flavour of how the conversations are going, how things may have changed from 10 or 15 years ago. If you imagine a critical incident or a major deployment, how are your colleagues dealing with this afterwards? What kinds of resources are they immediately turning to in the short term, and what are they doing in the long term?

[Paul Boissonneault]

If it's okay, in terms of the human element, I'd like to speak about a circumstance that I personally dealt with.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Please.

[Paul Boissonneault]

On June 12, 2007, I attended a call. That morning I had taken my five-year-old son and dropped him off at day care wearing a tank top, jean shorts, and a pair of sandals. I was a fire chief of a small community with two fire stations, volunteer in nature, and we got a call for a detached garage fire.

I took the fire chief vehicle and arrived on scene. Two of my volunteer firefighters parked the truck. The truck was eight minutes out from getting there. I was the first other vehicle on scene. They had gone in once and covered their faces. They were in their bunker gear but with no air patch yet, because the truck was still seven minutes out. They did an educated risk assessment that if they waited any longer there would be no viable life inside.

They pulled the child outside, and because I was coming there medically prepared, I had my basic trauma life support, and I did chest compressions. The child had already started to go pugilistic. It was a five-year-old playing with a butane lighter inside a garage.

In dealing with that call, the individual who went into that garage had a child the same age. That day, when I worked on that child who ended up passing away, my son was at day care wearing almost the exact same clothes.

After doing all the media associated with that there was an outcry from those I will call “armchair quarterbacks”. “Why did firefighters go in the building without air packs?” “Do you employ cowboys in that municipality?” I said, “They risked a lot to save a lot, given their experience and training. They did what they were supposed to do, and they're not to be criticized. I have children myself. They are heroes.”

What I can tell you is that members on that department that day saw the same thing I did. Although I don't wake up with haunting nightmares, I can tell you everything about that day: touch, sensation, clothing, colours, and smells. I can tell you all those things. Luckily, I can do so without crippling results.

Others couldn't. Others left the department that day, and that's only 2007. They never came back. What were their whereabouts? The tracking and the evidence-based research we talked about was not there. What has happened to them in a volunteer community? They've carried on with their marriages and their jobs. To what effect, I have no idea.

That is one sobering story to provide the human element of what happens, and those stories happen daily.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you for that.

I'm glad you told us that story. We needed to hear that, I think.

On a slightly different tack, could you talk about some of the factors that exacerbate, or potentially exacerbate, the condition we're talking about today, such as the workplace environment, shift work, the pace of activity you're going through, and the settings you're going into? In your mind, without being too scientific about it—and you can feel free to be anecdotal—what are those factors we need to pay attention to that are not resulting, necessarily, in the diagnosis we're discussing?

[Scott Marks]

I think you named some of the factors there in shift work and in the cumulative effects.

As far as the workplace itself, there are some issues based on traditions within the fire service. It's no different from the police services or the armed forces. You have a service that has relied on traditions and ways of getting through some of those issues that don't necessarily translate too well today. You also have a more diverse work force, which you didn't have.

One of the things we've looked at—and some studies are being done—are gender-based differences in how people deal with some of those types of issues, as well. It may well turn out through the research we get that, based on your gender, there may be better ways to approach debriefings and stress management.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Do you have some specific observations, anecdotal as they might be, on that? You pre-empted a question I was going to ask. It's an important one on gender. How does that manifest from what you've seen so far?

[Scott Marks]

I don't have anything specific, but I know there is a study being looked at by a sociology professor out of Winnipeg who is looking specifically at that issue. I can't speak to it, though.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you for that.

On the provincial side, you've given us the fact that four provinces are now on board in terms of recognizing the present link between the occupational setting and the condition. Within those provinces that are not yet part of this framework, can you tell us how many of your colleagues are still struggling with establishing causation in the system of obtaining benefits?

[Paul Boissonneault]

As far as specific numbers, I can't give those to you, but I can tell you about a sobering aspect on the human element side. At our yearly conference, attended by numerous fire chiefs from coast to coast to coast, and delegations of over 400 every year, usually we have individuals from mental health who provide discussions on stigma, and narrative, and changing and all those human elements that you speak of.

Every year the question is asked. Raise your hand if someone in your department, or someone you know, has being suffering with an occupational stress injury or mental health issue that has not been dealt with appropriately in your opinion. It's almost 100% of the hands that go up. The frustrating piece to it is there isn't the legislation support at the provincial level as of yet, and we're talking national strategy, but again—and I don't mean this disrespectfully—talk is talk, and action is action, and that's what needs to happen.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Do I have 10 seconds left for a quick final question, or am I out of time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

You're out of time but—

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

For the label PTSD, how much stigma is still attached to it, in your profession?

[Paul Boissonneault]

Short answer? Lots. There is a lot still associated with that, the narrative being that if I suffer from PTSD then I'm a lost cause. In many cases people indicate that's a challenge, and there needs to be more prevention education to build it out. There is a necessity for clinician diagnosis, but that's only a portion of what we're talking about.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

We'll give Mr. Miller a little extra time, but with the committee's indulgence, could I ask a quick question of Mr. Marks?

You're an international organization, as in Canada-U.S. I know we're a unique country. We have unique situations. We have differences in terms of population density and isolated communities, etc. Is there material from your American partners that would be helpful for this committee? Is there research that is of interest? We don't have many international bodies that come to us, and you happen to have a strong affiliation.

[Scott Marks]

I think our organization is struggling in the same sense as this country. We have the same issues here. There are studies out there. I don't think in the U.S. they're any farther ahead on understanding these issues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Could we ask you, though, just to double-check that, and if there is something that you think is helpful, from your brothers and sisters in the U.S., could you give it to the committee? One never knows...if you make a specific request. I've been on your website and wasn't finding anything.

The other thing that's helpful on your website is that the five points you put down are a little more fleshed out on the website. I draw the analyst's attention to that. I think you just named the five of them, but they're fleshed out a bit more here from your 2015 event.

We'll get that on the record.

Mr. Miller.