Public Safety Committee on May 8th, 2019

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ladies and gentlemen, I call this meeting to order.

Again, I apologize to our witnesses for the interruptions, but both of you being sophisticated witnesses, you will know exactly what's going on here.

Colleagues, the likelihood is that we'll be interrupted again.

I propose to run the meeting to the next set of bells. Either at that time, or a little later if there's some interest in carrying on past the bells with unanimous consent, or before we all adjourn, I propose that we then move the motion as to whether we refer it back to the finance committee with or without recommendations or amendments.

With that, I think we will start and ask the officials for their opening statements. We'll watch the clock and hopefully get through some of the testimony and questions and answers.

Mr. Koops, are you going first?

[Randall Koops, Director General, Policing Policy, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Sure.

Good afternoon. I'm Randall Koops, the director general of policing and firearms policy at Public Safety Canada.

I am accompanied by Jacques Talbot. He is a lawyer and legal counsel for the Department of Justice.

We're happy to appear today to assist the committee in its examination of division 10 of part 4 of Bill C-97. This bill would make amendments to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act to establish in law a new management advisory board to advise the commissioner of the RCMP on the administration and management of the force.

The bill sets out the Board's mandate, composition, administration, and other requirements.

In January 2019, the government accepted the recommendations contained in two reports on harassment at the RCMP: one from the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the RCMP, or CRCC, and the other from the former Auditor General of Canada, Sheila Fraser.

These reports, as others have before them, identified governance change as a necessary part of stamping out harassment within the ranks of the RCMP.

The government agreed and committed to establishing a management advisory board to guide the RCMP transformation agenda, which proposes major points of intervention for the government to reshape the foundations of the RCMP and orient it towards better long-term outcomes.

The proposed management advisory board would support the Commissioner of the RCMP in accomplishing her mandate commitment to lead the force through a period of transformation, to modernize it, and to reform its culture; in ensuring the sound overall management of the RCMP; in protecting the health and safety of RCMP employees; and in making sure that the RCMP delivers high-quality police services based on appropriate priorities, to keep Canadians safe and protect their civil liberties.

The mandate of the board would be to advise the commissioner of the RCMP on the force's administration and management, including its human resources, management controls, corporate planning and budgets. The composition of the management advisory board would be up to 13 members, including a chairperson and a vice-chairperson appointed by the Governor in Council on a part-time basis for a period of no more than four years.

In selecting these members, the government has indicated that it will consider regional and gender diversity, reconciliation with indigenous peoples, and executive management skills, experiences and competencies, for example, human resources and labour relations, information technology, change management and innovation. The bill would permit the minister to consult provincial and territorial governments that have contracted the services of the RCMP about these appointments. Also, the bill sets out the grounds of ineligibility, most importantly to avoid real, potential or apparent conflicts of interest for board members.

Regarding its operations, the management advisory board would be able to set its own priorities, work plans, and procedures. The Deputy Minister of Public Safety Canada and the Commissioner of the RCMP may attend all board meetings as observers, but will not vote.

To make certain that the board is able to advise on anything in its mandate, the RCMP will be obliged to provide the board with information it considers necessary. In addition, the board would be able to share with the minister any advice given to the commissioner.

Most importantly, under this legislation the establishment of the management advisory board would not change the existing roles, responsibilities or accountabilities of the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, who will remain accountable to Parliament for the RCMP and retain the authority to direct the commissioner and to establish strategic priorities for the RCMP; of the commissioner of the RCMP, who will retain control and management of the force; nor of the existing RCMP review bodies and existing national security review bodies whose mandates will remain unchanged. Neither will it change the responsibilities of the Treasury Board, which will remain the RCMP's employer.

Bill C-7, which was assented to in 2017, provided for the unionization of RCMP members and reservists. This process is now under way. In C-7, Parliament has reaffirmed the Treasury Board as the force's employer and nothing in these amendments revisits Parliament's decision or disrupts those relationships.

The proposed legislation fully respects a fundamental principle of Canadian policing, which is that police independence underpins the rule of law. The board will not, in any way, impinge upon the independence of RCMP policing operations. It will not be authorized to ask for information that might hinder or compromise an investigation or a prosecution and personal information and cabinet confidences are also out of bounds.

Assuming the bill receives royal assent, the amendments will become effective on a date prescribed by the Governor in Council.

However, if the government creates an interim board in the meantime using its existing authorities under the Public Service Employment Act, then a transitional provision included here in Bill C-97 would continue the tenure of those appointments under the new provisions in the RCMP Act.

In conclusion, the commissioner of the RCMP has said that the creation of a management advisory board is a critical step to help modernize and support a diverse, healthy and effective RCMP. Bill C-97 would make that role permanent to support the current commissioner in her mandate commitment to lead the RCMP through a period of transformation and to support future commissioners in maintaining a force that is trusted by Canadians for its policing excellence.

We would be happy to respond to any questions the committee may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Koops.

Again, I'm conscious of our time limitations. My suggestion to colleagues would be that we do five minute rounds.

With that, we have Mr. Graham for five minutes, please.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Koops, would advice from the board be in any way binding on the RCMP?

[Randall Koops]

Not at all. The role of the board would be to support the commissioner by providing her with advice. The commissioner retains command and control of the RCMP under the direction of the minister and nothing in the bill would alter that relationship.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

What kind of experience is required for a board member to become a board member? What kind of training is provided to them once they're there?

[Randall Koops]

Training would be a question that the RCMP and the board will want to discuss once the board is in place. I think it would be open to the board to have views on what kinds of training would be useful to them, both about police operations and about management. It would also be open to the RCMP to offer that to the board.

On your first question about qualifications, the minister has said that the qualifications that would be considered would include representative qualifications, for example, to reflect the diversity of Canada and geographic representation. Also, the membership that are being sought are folks who have significant experience in leading and guiding transformation in major national institutions.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

The proposed changes would provide the right for the board to proactively provide advice that is not necessarily solicited, is that correct?

[Randall Koops]

That's correct. The bill would leave the board open to determine its own priorities and determine its own ways of working. We would foresee an arrangement similar to what would exist between many other advisory boards, or boards of management, and a deputy head, which is a healthy dialogue between the two about where advice would be necessary and welcome.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

What are some of the most pressing issues the board is looking at, or do you have sense of that? You mentioned harassment. Are there other things as well?

[Randall Koops]

If we look at the government response to the CRCC and Fraser reports that was made public in January 2019, the things that the Minister of Public Safety highlighted included transparent and accountable governance structures, trusted harassment prevention and resolution mechanisms, the leadership development within the RCMP and the RCMP's enterprise-wide commitment to diversity and inclusion.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

On harassment, do you think this board will help restore confidence among the rank and file?

[Randall Koops]

The board has a role to play in supporting the commissioner in ensuring that the HR practices that are in place within the RCMP build a healthy workforce and a safe workplace. It would provide the commissioner with guidance on the adequacy of any new arrangements and on adapting them, going forward.

I think, more broadly, the board can provide the commissioner with expertise and guidance on leading the kind of cultural transformation that needs to occur within the RCMP.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

You mentioned that board members would not have access to, for example, cabinet secrets. What level of access will they have?

[Randall Koops]

The bill would provide that the RCMP would provide to the board whatever information the board believes is necessary for it to do its job. There's a positive obligation in the bill on the RCMP to provide that information, subject to a few constraints. Those would include, as we discussed, personal information, cabinet confidences and information related to ongoing law enforcement investigations or prosecutions.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you.

I'm going to pass the bit of time I have left to Sven.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Graham.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have a little over a minute.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

In practice, how would the dynamics unfold? I suspect there are a number of different ways to structure that board to create an overall vision of which direction the board should go in.

Should it be a board that has previous policing experience and connections, or should it be a board composed of laypersons who inject a completely fresh perspective, or is that up to the government of the day to decide?

Then, when the board makes recommendations and gives advice is there a reasons requirement? Is there some scrutiny that the RCMP would have to exercise to respond to those recommendations? What obligation is there to take on, at least, the thought process that the committee has developed?

[Randall Koops]

On the first point, the government of the day would be open to selecting board members that it felt responded to the current needs of the board, given the kind of experience that was necessary to help the commissioner.

For your example of police experience, I think the minister has said that the government would look for some measure of police experience on the board, but it should probably be broader than just former police officers.

You will note that in the bill there is a provision that current members of the RCMP are ineligible, as are employees of provincial or municipal governments, so it will not be a board of serving police officers.

The board is free to provide advice to the commissioner in the form that it best sees fit. How they do that would be open to discussion between the board and the commissioner.

The deputy minister of public safety will serve as an ex officio member of the board and, in that sense, the minister is represented at the board, even when the minister is not present at the board.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Motz, you have five minutes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you for being here today.

We know that there's a lot of oversight already with the RCMP, a lot of committees that they're involved in—the oversight committee, the review committee, their management committee, their committees related to security.

The challenges they face, as we know, are significant. It's unclear to me, and maybe to Canadians as well, how this new management committee is going to address those issues that face the RCMP.

One of the issues that I get in my riding is about being understaffed. I don't understand this—and I'm sure Canadians are going to be asking. How can the solution to the issues—severely understaffed rural detachments, poor communication, the lack of equipment, the internal harassment complaints that we continue to see repeatedly and the cultural challenges that they continue to face—be addressed by developing an advisory committee?

How do we see those issues being resolved with this new advisory committee?

[Randall Koops]

I think what the government is doing in response to a long series of recommendations going back many years about the need to fix cultural problems in the RCMP, in part, is by changing the governance of the RCMP.

In this instance, what the government has proposed is a board that can give the commissioner advice about leading enterprise-wide change in that organization. That will result, over time, in better management decisions and a healthier workforce, all of which contribute, in the long run, to fixing the kinds of issues that you've identified as things that need—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

You said, in response to my colleague's question, that the commissioner of the RCMP is not obligated to take any of the advice given by the advisory committee and implement it. Is that correct?

[Randall Koops]

That's correct.