Evidence of meeting #169 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Evan Travers  Acting Director General, Law Enforcement and Border Strategies Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Brian Sauvé  Co-Chair, National Police Federation
Michelaine Lahaie  Chairperson, Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Jacques Talbot  Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Justice

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

I know there must be a range of issues, but can you identify three or four main issues that do occur?

4:40 p.m.

Chairperson, Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Michelaine Lahaie

The main issues that we see are about improper attitude. We will see some that deal with improper use of resources, not responding to duty correctly, or what's deemed by the complainant to be improper use of force.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

I believe Mr. Graham had a couple questions.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

I have just a couple of short ones for Sergeant Sauvé if I may.

You're talking about the trouble you're having essentially unionizing the RCMP membership, if I understand correctly.

4:40 p.m.

Co-Chair, National Police Federation

Brian Sauvé

Well, I wouldn't say.... I mean, it was a challenge. We live in a diverse and very geographically spread-out country, so it was a challenge in the first year getting all of the members on board. The challenge now is in pushing the FPSLREB process in order to get through the application for certification. The membership have shown their support. It's just, shall I say, the “pushing molasses uphill in January” governmental process that is providing us with a bit of a delay.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

At least in January—

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Mr. Graham, I warned Mr. Paul-Hus about the relevance to Bill C-98.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

I'm about to bring it in, yes.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Okay. I'm hoping you'll bring it in.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

I'll bring it back in. I have one more question before I get to that, but I will tie in with that.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Okay.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

The reason I go down this road is that, as you're aware, there are three unionized services on Parliament Hill that report to the RCMP. I'm wondering if you've talked to SSEA and PSAC about their challenges. They've had many of them. I'm also wondering if Bill C-98 will give you any additional tools in dealing with this and if that's why you've come today.

4:45 p.m.

Co-Chair, National Police Federation

Brian Sauvé

No, the reason I expressed my interest with the clerk when he called this morning—I appreciate the short timelines that this committee is dealing with—is that any opportunity to have the membership of the RCMP's voice heard with respect to amending the RCMP Act is an opportunity for us to speak on their behalf. If we didn't, it would be an opportunity lost.

In terms of consulting with those who represent the PPS or the membership on the Hill, you know, Bill C-7 kind of precluded any organization that was asking to represent the membership of the RCMP—it's a grey area in Bill C-7—from having any associational activity outside the law enforcement community. We've been very careful in the NPF about how we associate and who we hitch our banner to. Most of that has been within the Canadian police association community—the Ontario Provincial Police Association, la Fraternité des policiers et policières à Québec, and that sort of thing. We haven't really linked up with a PSAC or a CUPE or a UCCO, for example.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Does the committee that we're talking about today give you more tools for the union to deal with, or is it a non-issue for you? When the certification has been received, will the union use this committee to deal with the RCMP? Is it a tool that would be in your arsenal as well?

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Very briefly, please.

4:45 p.m.

Co-Chair, National Police Federation

Brian Sauvé

I'm not sure I understand the question correctly.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC

In negotiating with the RCMP, does the creation of the committee as we're now seeing it improve your ability to negotiate? Does it give you extra tools, or is it a non-issue for you and it's strictly for the public, in your view?

4:45 p.m.

Co-Chair, National Police Federation

Brian Sauvé

With the CRCC as it is—I'll use the terminology “CRCC” because that's what it still is today—I don't see Bill C-98 impacting the membership of the RCMP or changing how we deal with or investigate public complaints.

As you heard from the chair of the CRCC, Ms. Lahaie, on the timelines with respect to the investigation of public complaints, the bottleneck that we see and that I hear about is the RCMP's ability to investigate in a timely manner. That extends—

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I'm sorry, Mr. Sauvé, but we'll have to leave it there. We've run past time.

4:45 p.m.

Co-Chair, National Police Federation

Brian Sauvé

That's fine.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Mr. Motz, you have seven minutes.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Thank you.

You indicated, ma'am, that you have 2,500 to 3,000 complaints that the RCMP investigates on their members a year. The commission reviews about 250 to 300 of those. Has there been any thought given, based on what the CBSA is currently doing, because they already have complaints that they deal with internally, to how many more will be added to the commission's workload?

4:45 p.m.

Chairperson, Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Michelaine Lahaie

We've been consulting extensively with CBSA on this issue. My understanding is that they receive approximately 3,000 complaints a year. We're expecting the numbers to be very similar. Having said that, there will of course be a public education process that will happen around the launch of the PCRC. Once that happens, there is a possibility that the number of complaints will go up. Right now our planned number is about 3,000 per year.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

As I understand Bill C-98, you had six members of the commission coming in.

4:45 p.m.

Chairperson, Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Michelaine Lahaie

We had five members of the commission under the old RCMP Act, so this will be five again.