Sure—
Evidence of meeting #19 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offenders.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #19 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offenders.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Sure—
12:45 p.m.
Director of Investigations, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Off the top of my head?
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
Well, you're probably better positioned than anybody in this room to comment on it.
12:45 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
We're seeing a big increase in the population that speaks neither English nor French as the first language. There is a need for more programming around people with language difficulties. We need ESL, for example.
We're also seeing very distinct sub-populations inside federal penitentiaries. There are some big blocks. Examples are a block of 25% aged over 50, 25% aboriginal. The number of black inmates in Canadian penitentiaries has gone up by about 90% in 10 years. We've seen a big increase in Asian and Hispanic offenders as well. That cohort has to change.
The whole approach to ethnocultural programming needs to be refined and enhanced. The approach to older offenders and the kinds of programs they need are very different. So are the kinds of supports they need, not just for safe custody, but also to prepare them for release into a world where often they are not going to be living independently and they're not going to be looking for a job.
So it's ethnocultural programming, but it's also responding to the demographic shifts inside our penitentiaries.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
Language and age tailoring would be two areas based on the demographics.
I need either a yes or a no and I have a minute and 30 seconds or so to ask you about one other area of programming.
12:45 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Yes.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
Okay. I know that counter-radicalization programming is obviously an area that requires a lot more than 70 seconds of my remaining time, but could I have some highlights from your point of view?
12:45 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
It's too little, too late. I think we're behind when it comes to radicalization and counter-radicalization programming.
Again, this is not just a Correctional Service of Canada issue. There are many aspects to it. It's having people housed properly, having them programmed properly, and having them supervised properly.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I didn't want to leave you on a defeatist note. Within the context of the Correctional Service's environment, tell me what we can do. What should we be doing that we're not doing right now?
12:45 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Largely, it's around release planning. It's integration and engagement with the community support that exists for these men and women within their own cultural communities.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant
I'd like to use your few remaining seconds to push a little bit on the ethnocultural programming and the interfaith and ecumenical chaplaincy programs and cuts that have happened in recent years.
Have those cuts made a difference, in your mind, with respect to potential better outcomes for release, or do we know enough to know whether they have been affected?
12:50 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
There were some significant changes to the provision of chaplaincy support across the country, and I think they're fairly well documented. We're still seeing the effect of these. It varies across different regions of the country. It's operating a little differently even within some institutions within regions.
It's not as dire as it was when the contracts for the part-time chaplains were first not renewed. Then there was a call for proposals to go to a more centralized process.
I think the best thing I can tell you, Chair, is that the jury is still out.
We have a parallel issue with the role of elders in terms of providing spiritual support to indigenous men and women. Elders are increasingly feeling either—and these are the words they've used to me—marginalized or co-opted, in terms of their role, but their role, by the way, is guaranteed in law, much as is the case with other chaplaincy or spiritual supports.
The simple answer to your question is that we're still learning more about the impact of those changes and cuts.
May 31st, 2016 / 12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for joining us. My apologies for my tardiness; I was speaking on cybersecurity.
Mr. Sapers, how many years have you been in the role? I missed that at the outset.
12:50 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Since April Fool's Day of 2004.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
You seem to remember that date.
I'd like to talk to you for a moment about section 718 of the Criminal Code, which outlines the principles of sentencing. It is essentially, I would suggest, within your mandate to look at those principles.
Which do you feel are the most important? Are they of equal importance? Do you feel that your mandate encompasses all of them, or do you focus on one or two?
12:50 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
My focus is on the mandate that's established in the Corrections and Conditional Release Act, part III.
When I reflect upon the Criminal Code of Canada and think of the sentencing provisions, section 718 and others, I note that the language in the Criminal Code of Canada continues to call for the least restrictive measure that's necessary to achieve the purpose of the courts. That language was stripped out of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act, so what we have is a slight mismatch right now between those principles that the court considers and those principles that our Correctional Service is supposed to consider in the administration of the sentence imposed by the court.
I tend not to rank those principles in an order. You asked me whether I would put a priority on one or another. I think safe and appropriate custody and providing supports for safe and timely reintegration are really the guiding values. They're well articulated in the Correctional Service's mission statement. They're reflected in the Corrections and Conditional Release Act. I think it's really at that level that my office operates.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
I have found since I was in law school that you could not divide people, whether Liberals or Conservatives, into easy stereotypes of “hard on crime” or that sort of thing. Rather, it's that each grasped different principles within those guidelines more tightly.
The first three—denounce and deter, separate offenders, protect society—are the ones that I think the Conservatives feel were softened too much during the Chrétien government and before. Then the other three principles—of rehabilitation, reparations to victims, and a sense of responsibility for misconduct—are the other side, which my friends on this side would suggest were wanting in the previous nine years.
I think all are important. My concern is that when talking about offending the rights of others or about violent crime, from a simple assault through to murder, the emphasis of society has to be, I think, on the first three principles. Would you agree or disagree with that when it comes to violent offenders?
12:55 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
As I said, I tend not rank these things in order. I think that doing justice is a pretty complex thing to do. It has many facets and many dimensions. My own experience in working in this field for 30 years is that I've never seen two cases that are exactly the same, with the same set of circumstances. I've heard from victims who have a variety of needs and wants, and often those needs and wants are not for tough, harsh responses but for compassionate responses, responses that are going to be helpful and preventative.
There are a variety of things. I think it's necessary to try to hold them all in your hand at the same time and then think things through.
Frankly, I've spent the last 12 years of my professional life trying to be absolutely apolitical about these things and not see them in terms of Liberal or Conservative or New Democrat or anything else. It's interesting to me that the CCRA, which I value so much as a piece of legislation, was actually put into place by a Conservative federal government. Those principles about the least restrictive measure and the role of corrections in a just society were brought into law by the Mulroney government. I don't think of these things as right-left issues.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Erin O'Toole Conservative Durham, ON
The Mulroney government held a referendum on the death penalty. As we recall, it was rejected, including by the then-prime minister himself.
My sense is that your office or other agencies and groups tend to focus on the rehabilitative aspects, which I think are very important. My concern has been that in the case of violent offenders or repeat offenders, society has, I feel, an expectation that the protection element of our penal system and our corrections institutions takes priority, for the simple reason that there is a risk to the public.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant
I'm afraid I have to end you there.
One last five-minute round goes to Mr. Di Iorio.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Sapers, could you share with us your observations about the prison farms when they were in operation? What do you think about their closure?
12:55 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Prison farms or agri-businesses, as they were called, were operated by CORCAN, which is an operating entity of the Correctional Service of Canada. I was surprised that they were closed and at how quickly they were closed and by the skimpy reasons that were offered publicly for their closure. I hope there will be some reconsideration.
CSC needs to rethink its approach to vocational preparation across the board, and how CORCAN operates, and the kinds of industrial activities and opportunities that it provides to inmates. The participation rate is far too low, and the incentive pay was taken away. That came after the closure of the prison farms. The promised new activities haven't really materialized in a meaningful way.
An individual working in one of the agri-businesses on one of the prison farms learned a lot more than how to deal with crops or herds. They learned a lot about personal responsibility, timeliness, hygiene, occupational health and safety, and all kinds of transferable skills.
I think it was short-sighted. I hope that some reconsideration is given. I hope the reconsideration will be in the context of a larger rethink about vocational preparation offered by the Correctional Service of Canada.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Could you also shed some light on the nature of your relationship with the Correctional Service of Canada management? Do you interact with its officials on a daily basis? Do you have meetings with them? How do your exchanges go? How do you obtain information? What adjustments could be made?