Evidence of meeting #47 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was number.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC
I appreciate all the work you've done in this report. I'm on two sides of the fence here. I wouldn't disagree with anything that you've put into your report in terms of recommendations. I could support each and every one of them. The problem that comes....
You've talked about the integration into the community. I was formerly a mayor and as a mayor, that was a significant issue for me, especially the release of those at high risk to reoffend, because we've had many of those. A 16-year-old girl in our community was murdered; the balcony rapist was released into our community, and another 12-year-old girl was murdered. In a community where you're trying to grapple with these issues.... Also, if you get over two years, you've done, especially in Canada, something pretty serious, right?
What we found was that the programs in the federal institutions were actually really good programs. The challenge was that you could engage or not; it was all voluntary. The wraparound services when someone is released are an issue that often falls to communities, because there isn't enough there. To the issue around mental health, there are so many issues on that front that it has to take all three levels of government to come together to really rectify and look at these numbers.
I was curious in terms of such an increase in regard to aboriginal women. Are they offending in a typical way? I'm not sure why that would rise so dramatically. Do you have any analysis on that?
4:15 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
There's a host of reasons, I think, why we're seeing this disproportionate result. Some of it has to do with the structure of the criminal law itself: the increase in the number of mandatory minimums, for example; the decisions that are made at the start, first appearance or bail decisions, which tend to follow people; the increase in the number of administration of justice offences that are on somebody's record, which then lead to more significant sanctions even though they're not new criminal charges. There's just a whole variety of issues that have been driving these statistics. It's not just one thing.
The discharge planning, the transition from prison to community, is one of the most critical things, and one of the things that we may be doing better but are still not doing well enough.
December 1st, 2016 / 4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Dianne Lynn Watts Conservative South Surrey—White Rock, BC
I know my time is limited. The programs are there. The structure is there. The recidivism rate is quite low, actually, coming out of a federal institution. As far as the information that I have is concerned—Pam, you've mentioned this as well—the mental health issues, the educational issues, all of those things start before you enter the criminal justice system. Those are predominantly community and provincial based, so the program is going to have to be funded more on the front end in terms of making sure, especially if there are measures in place for indigenous people and all that, that you have resilient children as they're growing up and you're catching those issues fairly early.
There are a lot of addiction issues and drug issues, for example, the crack cocaine that burned holes in people's brains so now there are people who don't have full brain capacity and have mental health issues. It just snowballs. I think an overall strategy has to be undertaken. I worked with more than 100 community advocates and three levels of government trying to do a strategy around what that would look like starting from the community, so you're not coming in contact with the judiciary or with the justice system.
Your idea in terms of the elder commission or the discharging to an aboriginal community is probably one which I think would really work. I don't know who would be in charge of that other than the parole board, if these folks go through the parole board. I don't know. What would you suggest?
4:20 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
I'll work in an answer.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
I'm echoing all of my colleagues' heaping of gratitude for your years of service in this capacity, and wishing you the best in your future endeavours.
Page 45 of your report refers to your recommendation that the CSC appoint a deputy commissioner for indigenous corrections. In that recommendation, which is number 16 in your report, you refer to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and all of the recommendations there, and our government's commitment to act on the TRC recommendations. You refer to the Gladue sentencing principles, which have been imported into the correctional services context. You also refer to the Ewert decision, which was a September 2015 Federal Court decision that, among other things, indicated that the psychological assessment practices currently within the CSC are not particularly reliable, and in fact, are unreliable as they relate to the indigenous population, which is overrepresented.
May I ask you, are those three main components under the recommendation the beginnings of a mandate letter for this new deputy commissioner?
4:20 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Mr. Chairman, I can be brief and say yes.
There would be more, but—
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
There would be more, but for the duration of your testimony, in answer to my question, I think it would be of great value if you could give us the beginnings of what a mandate letter for this new deputy commissioner would be, with a specific focus on the indigenous population.
4:20 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Sure. Really it's not difficult to describe. We follow a number of metrics when it comes to correctional outcomes, for example, the amount of time served before first release; the proportion who don't get out until statutory release or warrant expiry; those who are released conditionally, and, if they are suspended or revoked, why they are suspended or revoked; and the amount of time in segregation or in higher security versus lower security. We follow a number of metrics.
The gaps in outcomes in those metrics between indigenous and non-indigenous are stark, so you would want somebody who'd be accountable for setting performance measures and driving outcomes that narrow that gap. You would do that through some of the mechanisms we described in our recommendations and that you referred to in your question.
4:20 p.m.
Dr. Ivan Zinger Executive Director and General Counsel, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Perhaps I can add to Mr. Sapers' answer.
There is an executive committee, and everybody has roles and responsibilities. Part of the issue is that if you make every member of the executive committee responsible to some degree to look after aboriginal issues, nobody ends up being accountable. This is why I think it's important to have a single person who can be accountable. When there are decisions about funding, about programming, about health care services, and when there are decisions in terms of where you will put the program and how you will structure your organization, you can have a constant voice at the table who looks at things through an aboriginal lens—e.g. with more than 25% of our inmate population being from an indigenous background, these will be the kinds of impacts you will have—and who then looks after those performance outcomes that Mr. Sapers mentioned to ensure that gaps do narrow over time.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
Assuming this office is created, how do you foresee the deputy commissioner for indigenous corrections collaborating with the ministry of indigenous affairs? Where do you see overlap?
4:25 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
The Department of Public Safety, the ministry of indigenous affairs, and other federal departments share a lot of responsibility. The federal government's responsibility for indigenous Canadians is broad and deep. It's been made profoundly important with the commitments that the Prime Minister has made, particularly around the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. There are lots of round tables and horizontal initiatives across government. There are lots of FPT initiatives.
I understand your question, and I don't mean to not address it—
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
And I don't mean to interrupt you, but I'm running out of time.
I want to quickly come back to one expression you used earlier in your testimony, that culture eats policy.
4:25 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Yes, for breakfast.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
Reflecting on your 20-some years of service, what is your single greatest take-away in the challenges to engendering the culture that you think will actually see out the reforms that are most important to you?
4:25 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
For me, it's always tone at the top. If you want to change culture, it's tone at the top and it's a commitment to principle-based decisions. Corrections is, at its heart, a human rights function. If you lose that perspective, then you lose that tone and things start to go astray.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON
Thank you, Mr. Sapers and Mr. Zinger, for being here, and thanks for your service.
I have to be frank. I was very dumbfounded—as people I know would be—to hear that prisoners get an allowance. I was even more dumbfounded to hear you recommend that it be increased. I understand that you can't incarcerate somebody and not allow them to send out birthday cards, as you said, or what have you. My suggestion is that rather than an allowance, you would allow them one letter a week or two, or whatever is reasonable, and the same thing with purchases at the tuck shop. Most taxpayers would find it just unbelievable that they pay to incarcerate these people, and then they have to pay them an allowance.
At any rate, there are a whole bunch of areas here. The aboriginal aspect is one that we could talk about forever, but I think there have been a lot of questions there.
You read all the time about the addictions inside. Most of it is drugs, I believe. Does the prison system administer illegal drugs in any way, at any time—yes or no—to the prisoners?
4:25 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
No.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON
Okay, that's good. If we believe everything, and you haven't denied it today, there is an addictions problem inside. Unless there's a drone flying over everybody dropping packages, or they're being administered—which they're not, you said—how are they getting in there? The only other one that seems logical, Mr. Sapers, and I'm not trying to make it a simplistic issue, are people who work in the prison system bringing them in?
4:25 p.m.
Correctional Investigator of Canada, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Contraband drugs are a problem, but so is the diversion of legal drugs. Your specific question was, is the CSC administering illegal drugs? My answer was straightforward: it was no. You have a drug subculture within prisons. It makes some sense, when you think about it: the majority of individuals who, at the time of their index offence, were under the influence of an intoxicant. You look at the life histories of most men and women in prisons and you'll see there are histories of substance abuse of one kind or another.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
