Public Safety Committee on Dec. 8th, 2016

[Michel Coulombe]

Maybe John will be able to clarify it.

In the database containing all the associated metadata, some of that data was the subject of Justice Noël's decision. When the decision was rendered, we stopped accessing the database in its entirety. Now we are resuming access to the data that we are clearly able to identify as threat-related. We are able to retain associated data that is threat-related. The judge was clear on that. As we determine the nature of the data, we make them accessible once more so that they can be analyzed.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

How do you determine which associated data are threat-related and which are not?

[Michel Coulombe]

I will let John answer that.

But I can say that when associated data is threat-related, an operational report is produced. We are able to establish the link, that is, to go back to the operational report and find the associated data that was used to produce the report. That is how we work.

John, do you want to add anything more specific?

[John Cousineau]

I can't really add a great deal. The director is correct, it is just a comparison. We check whether a report has been produced and, if so, we can link it with the associated data. So that is data we are able to retain.

[Michel Coulombe]

Perhaps I would like to add that, as part of that analysis, if we cannot clearly determine that the pertinent analysis is linked to a threat for which a report was produced, we err on the side of caution and we leave it in the section that is not accessible.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Since my time is limited, I will change the subject, although I have other questions about what we are currently discussing.

You mentioned the various people who were made aware of this program. One of them was the former Minister of Public Safety. However, Mr. Goodale does not seem to have been made aware, except through the SIRC report.

Why were former ministers aware, whereas Mr. Goodale was still not aware several months after he took up his duties?

[Michel Coulombe]

In 2006, the minister was briefed because we were implementing the program. We advised the minister at the time that we wanted to implement the program, and we told him about its usefulness.

Over the years, the program was mentioned in the annual report that the service must submit to the minister, for example. In the past, ministers have been informed either through the annual report or through the public report produced by the service.

In the case of Minister Goodale, I would have to check, but as for previous ministers, in the annual report that we produce for the minister—

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

No briefing is given to a minister coming into office in a new government?

[Michel Coulombe]

Yes, there are briefings, but it's important to understand that the program we're talking about is a component of various other programs.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you.

I think I have about a minute left.

Mr. Frater, I don't know if you can answer this question, but was the current Minister of Justice aware of the arguments that were being made before the court by the Department of Justice about this data retention?

[Robert Frater]

She was briefed on the litigation generally. On the specifics of the argument, I don't think so. I don't recall whether she was given a copy of our written submissions, but she was generally aware of the litigation.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Coulombe, I only have a few seconds left. Obviously, you don't have that information at your fingertips, but you can provide it to the committee. I am curious to know the numerical relationship between the number of people for whom you have the related data and the number of people who were the target of the investigations. I would like to know that proportion.

[Michel Coulombe]

We'll try but, once again, because of the nature of the database architecture, it can be extremely difficult to find out how many people were involved.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Which might speak volumes about the problems of collecting this kind of data, right?

[Michel Coulombe]

Not necessarily. It shows that when metadata is put in a database, no link is established between the data and the individuals. We're talking about telephone numbers, emails, IP addresses. It's difficult to determine how many individuals that represents, simply because there is no link.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Isn't it exactly when we don't know who is connected to the data that we run the risk of making a mistake and involving people who are not a threat?

[Michel Coulombe]

That's exactly the meaning of the decision.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you, Mr. Coulombe.

Ms. Damoff.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thanks to all of you for being here today.

I'm following up on something that Mr. Dubé started asking you about, and that was previous ministers. I note that this practice started 10 years ago, in 2006, which is the time of the previous government. The previous public safety minister was briefed on the creation of this practice, and I'm assuming that he approved of it.

[Michel Coulombe]

Well, I would have to go back.... I don't think that at the time we were seeking his approval. We were informing him that we were putting that program in place.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

But he didn't ask you to stop—

[Michel Coulombe]

No.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

—and then he was briefed on it annually. Is that what you're saying?

[Michel Coulombe]

Well, not just that minister, but on a number of occasions.... Just give me a second. For example, from 2007 to 2010, the service actually described the program and what it was doing. Every year, the director has to submit a classified report to the minister. From 2007 to 2010, ODAC, that program, was mentioned in that report. Again in 2010, there was also a verbal briefing given on ODAC and its usefulness to the minister at the time.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay. So no one during all those years questioned the privacy of the information and whether you should be doing that, then.