Evidence of meeting #49 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was decision.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Superintendent Fraser Macaulay  Assistant Commissioner, Correctional Operations and Programs, Correctional Service of Canada
Caroline Xavier  Vice-President, Operations Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
Michel Coulombe  Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Robert Frater  Chief General Counsel, Department of Justice
John Cousineau  Assistant Director, Operations Enablement, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Is there documentation, a study, that shows that, and if so, could the committee get a copy of that?

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

Perhaps I could ask Fraser Macaulay to comment on that from the point of view of the Correctional Service.

Fraser, if you could, also just describe the amount of money that's involved, which is relatively small. Again, remember this was a recommendation from Mr. Sapers.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Understood.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

I have simply passed that recommendation to the CSC and invited them, as Mr. Sapers had asked, for the issue to be investigated.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

I appreciate that.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

It's under investigation. It's not a decision that has already been taken.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Okay, thank you.

My next question was going to be for you anyway, Mr. Macaulay, so continue with that.

4:20 p.m.

Chief Superintendent Fraser Macaulay Assistant Commissioner, Correctional Operations and Programs, Correctional Service of Canada

We would have to take an undertaking to see where he has determined those facts. I can assure you that we don't have a breakdown of the complete spending of their funding to that level—

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Okay.

4:20 p.m.

C/Supt Fraser Macaulay

—but we would be able to do that.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Sure, I appreciate that.

My next question is also for you. We hear all the time, and even Mr. Sapers was around it, that there is a drug problem within prisons, some of it is illicit drugs, some of it—and for the life of me I can't figure out how or why—is prescribed drugs. There's a problem there, so how do we fix this? I don't think it's a perceived problem. I think it is a problem, with the amount that you hear about it.

Do you have any comments?

4:20 p.m.

C/Supt Fraser Macaulay

There is no doubt that there are several inmates who come in both with substance abuse issues and/or casual drug usage, and that during their time in incarceration, whether it's using medications and/or other illicit means to get drugs in, that is done. It's an ongoing issue for us.

We follow very strict plans, from our searching inside, to education, to actual health interventions, to programming interventions. We're following the same as any outside public domain would, attacking the issue from three components.

Yes, there is no doubt that drugs do get in. There is an active market for people who are seeking that relief both inside and outside of institutions, and it is an issue that we attempt to deal with as much as we can.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Okay.

On the drugs getting in, Mr. Macaulay, in this day and age of technology and security, and what have you, you'd think you could pretty well stop it if the will was there. Even if they were coming in, let's say, by drones, I would think that before the prisoners are let out for their daily exercise, security would check the yard to make sure nothing had been dropped in.

It's pretty hard for a layman or the average person to figure out why we aren't stopping it if we really want to. I'm not pointing fingers, but it would appear to me that it should be able to be stopped.

4:25 p.m.

C/Supt Fraser Macaulay

I don't disagree from a perspective of talking to the average person and their beliefs of the prison system and incarceration levels and the security levels that we have.

Unfortunately, where there's a will, there always appears to be a way. There are illicit drugs that get into our institutions, whether it's through personal importation or from people going in and out of the institution that we're missing during our searches. As an example, the new synthetic drugs are very hard to stay atop of, even from a technical perspective. The more we change our formulary to pick it up, quickly the same issues get picked up and different types of substances are being done. So—

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Thank you, Mr. Macaulay.

4:25 p.m.

C/Supt Fraser Macaulay

It happens, but it's not obviously what we want to happen.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Time always goes way too fast.

Thank you.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

When you're having fun.

Thank you, Mr. Macaulay and Mr. Miller.

Mr. Di lorio, you have five minutes.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for the time you devoted to the preparation and presentation of your statement. I also thank your collaborators.

I'd like to speak to you about borders and customs. There is a problem I would like to bring to your attention involving reception, appearance and wait times.

I will begin with the reception issue. People who come to our borders, to customs, are either Canadian citizens, that is to say people to whom this country belongs, or people who are not Canadian citizens. It seems to me that there is a these people should be received with a minimum of civility.

Which brings me to the second problem, that of appearance. When we arrive at Canada border posts, we see that our agents are dressed in quasi-military garb and that the organization seems almost military. The one-size-fits-all approach seems to be a problem. It is one thing to arrive at the Montreal airport, but it's another to arrive at a border post in a rural area.

The third problem involves wait times. It seems unacceptable to me that we make a Canadian citizen who is coming back to his own country wait.

I brought this problem to your attention in a general way by deconstructing it, Mr. Minister. I would like you to tell us about the measures that will be taken by our government to solve this situation.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

Mr. Di Iorio, the Canada Border Services Agency has an incredibly difficult and important job to do. They are charged with the responsibility of maintaining security at Canada's borders. That's a serious business. The safety of the country depends on them making the proper judgments at the border about what comes in and who comes in, and what doesn't come in and who doesn't come in. That's a really profound assignment.

At the same time, they are making decisions at the border that have a huge impact, good or bad, on the Canadian economy. Just think of the border between Canada and the United States. There are 400,000 people who cross that border every day, and there is about $2.4 billion in trade that crosses that border every day.

CBSA is a fundamentally important organization. They have to get it right. There's a real seriousness about this job.

At the same time, you make a valid point that when Canadians are returning home, or when newcomers are arriving, they want to feel that they're being treated professionally, politely, and in a welcoming fashion.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Nicola Di Iorio Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Mr. Minister, when I go to China, I am received better there than in my own country. The country is a dictatorship; there have been no elections like ours for a long time. However, the people there are not dressed like the military, although it is a dictatorship supported by a military regime. In my country, I cannot get the same reception.

That is why I used the expression “one size fits all”. We seem to be using the highest level of security needed for certain situations. These officers see 400,000 people go by day after day, but they cannot establish criteria to determine whom they should spend less time with and whom they should spend more time with.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Ralph Goodale Liberal Regina—Wascana, SK

Well, it's a careful balance, Mr. Di Iorio, and Canadians would be pretty unforgiving if they found that the system in some way didn't serve them well on the security point of view. At the same time, there needs to be that human element that also is welcoming and polite.

Maybe I could ask Caroline Xavier to comment on this, because these are the kinds of questions that she has to deal with every day.

4:30 p.m.

Caroline Xavier Vice-President, Operations Branch, Canada Border Services Agency

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

We invest an enormous amount to train our officers and we make sure they conduct themselves in a very professional manner. Customer service is very important for us. Mr. Di Iorio, I understand the comparison you are making between China and ourselves. I can tell you that we look at what is being done internationally to find ways to improve our border services on a daily basis.

We are very proud of the way in which we serve the public. There are certainly things that we must continue to improve and we still have a lot to learn. By analyzing other organizations around the world that are responsible for border services, we will gain an understanding of how to improve those services, and that includes the feedback you gave us today.

We also receive a lot of positive comments about the services we provide to Canadians and to other travellers who cross our borders daily.

I understand what you are saying about security. However, as the minister said a few minutes ago, we are the first point of contact for the public and we take that very seriously. We want to make sure that the people arriving here are those who should be coming into the country.

I fully understood your comments that sometimes the officers see the same person on a daily basis. For cases like that there are programs, such as the NEXUS program, that allow those who cross the border frequently to enter the country more easily.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Rob Oliphant

Thank you, Ms. Xavier and Mr. Di Iorio.

It is now time to—

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Miller Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

On a point of order, I just wanted to verify that we could get that information I requested, Mr. Chair.