Public Safety Committee on March 8th, 2016

[Michel Coulombe]

Yes, the role of the service and the work we've done so far, for example, being part of the Kanishka project and the analysis the service has done itself in terms of factors leading to radicalization, are certainly informing Public Safety as they're working on this project.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you.

Commissioner Paulson, thank you. You've both been here within a few weeks of previous appearances, so we appreciate your time. I have a question for you.

Mr. Spengemann outlined somewhat the uncertainty with respect to marijuana, in that there was an election promise with regard to legalization, yet there's a period before legislation or a regulatory review is coming forward. There's a kind of wild west being created by people who want to push the envelope forward.

The discretion that you noted, Commissioner, appears to be similar to the position that the chiefs of police of Canada took, in that the best way to approach this might be to empower law enforcement with the ability to issue a ticket in the circumstances where use is recreational and there's no impact on youth or things like that, or to lay charges for more serious incidents near schools or for someone who might be trafficking or dealing and that sort of thing.

That was a recommendation as opposed to legalization. Is that in effect what is happening now in this sort of grey zone between the election promise and future legislation?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Yes, I don't think we should overstate the greyness of it. I would draw a parallel to coming across someone with a still who is making whisky for commercial purposes. We wouldn't issue a ticket, right? There are ample other statutory paths to prosecuting them. That's somewhat analogous to this situation.

The people who are exploiting.... Maybe I shouldn't say exploiting, but there's a misunderstanding, it seems to me, in the Canadian consciousness about what the state of the law is. People are trying to take advantage, frankly, and make some money. Where those people are identified as organized crime figures or serious criminals with criminal enterprise intentions, or where they are doing that around schools, or marketing that overtly and affecting children, we're taking action. I think that's a reasonable course.

[Erin O'Toole, Conservative, Durham, ON]

We're three or four months past the election when the promise was made. Do you find that the aggressiveness of some players in this space is becoming more pronounced as time passes?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

No, it seems to be pretty steady.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Dubé.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Paulson, I would like to discuss another aspect of the criminal activity intelligence database. We know that the situation may have changed and perhaps you could provide us with more detail on this.

In Quebec, according to what the Auditor General said, processing times are longer for requests in French than in English. According to the information I have, the wait time is 14 months for requests in English, whereas in Quebec it is 36 months. Is this due to a lack of sufficient resources to meet official languages commitments? Is that what explains that difference?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Unfortunately, Mr. Dubé, I am not in a position to explain what is going on. What could explain this difference is that in Quebec there are several police forces, whereas elsewhere in Canada, the RCMP does this type of frontline police work. I do not have the figures, but there are hundreds of police corps in Quebec and each one has to adjust its policy to manage—

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Forgive me for interrupting you, but my time is limited.

Ontario has a provincial police force like the one in Quebec, and yet the situation is not the same. Do you have a shortage of resources to meet official language commitments in Quebec? I understand what you are saying, but once again, the situation is the same in Ontario, but it does not have the same problem.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

There are also challenges in Ontario. Even though they may not be as serious as the ones in Quebec, we still have to meet the challenge which consists in changing the processes to provide information.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Very well. I have taken note of this.

Mr. Head, if I may come back to you, once again I'm going to come back to the topic of solitary confinement.

I heard what you said, and I appreciate that the situation is different provincially and federally. That being said, I will ask once again, given that I think it's an important topic to study, do you still believe that this committee should undertake a study on the use of solitary confinement, and how we can see that going forward?

[Don Head]

It's a really good question. When I talk to my colleagues around the world, probably the common theme that is coming up at their management tables is the issue of segregation. Part of the reason it's at the table is there is a misunderstanding about what's going on, so I think that even having someone appear before you to talk about what segregation is, and what happens federally, provincially and around the world would be a good start to getting some facts out there.

As we go forward, looking at the whole issue, I think there is going to be an opportunity to consider possible policy, legislative and regulatory changes that will address some of the issues you see in the newspaper and playing out in our facilities.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

All right. Thank you.

I have a question for all the witnesses. Mr. Paulson may also want to answer.

Several members raised the issue of the legalization of marijuana. I think the government is beginning to realize that there is a difference between an electoral commitment and actually changing the laws involved. There is a certain vagueness at the moment, no matter what your opinion is on this topic, and this is causing a problem with regard to your work. We need some concrete action and more information as to the direction the government is going to take. Would you say that is an accurate statement? That seems to be the gist of your comments.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

In my opinion, changing the legislation and the regulations is very complex work.

It's a complex area. I think folks are going to be challenged to make that transition, and we want to help to the extent that we can.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

The situation remains uncertain because we do not know what direction the government is going to take. There seems to be more reluctance than there was before. This seems to be causing problems for you with regard to—

[Commr Bob Paulson]

The government's anticipated direction is clear enough, but with such a complex project, you have to expect that it will take some time.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Fine.

Mr. Coulombe, given your line of work, you are a man of few words, often quite rightly so. Yesterday, you spoke of several decades of combatting terrorism. I would like to understand why you made such a statement, which could be worrisome for people.

How do you justify such a statement?

[Michel Coulombe]

I will give you an example.

The phenomenon of people going abroad to take part in jihad, in terrorist activities, is not new. We have seen it in Afghanistan, Bosnia and Chechnya. However, even if we add up all of these conflicts, we see that the number of people involved now in Syria and Iraq is probably 10 times higher. But we are still working today on the files of individuals who took part in these conflicts.

At the present time there are between 25,000 and 30,000 foreign combatants in that region who are neither Iraqi nor Syrian. As I mentioned yesterday, even if the Islamic State group is defeated militarily, these 30,000 individuals will leave the region to return to their countries of origin or go elsewhere to take part in jihad. Even if only 10% of them do so, we are talking about 2,000 people who will continue to participate in terrorist activities.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Concerning the fight against radicalization, do you think that an approach that would include the communities concerned would have more impact than military measures? If I read between the lines, I believe that is what you were saying.

[Michel Coulombe]

I do not think the issue is whether one would have more impact than the other. It is really a continuum. We certainly cannot solve this matter simply by collecting information, or enforcing the laws and carrying out military operations. Nor will the issue be solved through deradicalization programs alone. What matters is that there truly be a continuum, with action all along the spectrum.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you very much.

We have time for one more seven-minute round. We'll go to Mr. Mendicino and then Ms. Damoff.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to return to the topic of the national security oversight committee. Given that the minister has now taken his leave, I'm going to direct my questions to the deputy minister.

Within the broader context of oversight, we've heard about the distinction between real-time oversight and post hoc or after-the-fact oversight, which is more akin to what SIRC does. It looks historically at whether or not the departments are complying with the balance between the need to protect Canadians and to also safeguard their values under the charter.

We presently get real-time oversight through the national security adviser. Is that a fair statement?

[François Guimont]

Well, if by “we” you mean the government—

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I mean that the Prime Minister gets real-time—

[François Guimont]

Yes. It is a combination of Public Safety, the agency heads, the deputy minister, the minister, and the national security adviser and the apparatus around that unit.