Public Safety Committee on May 8th, 2017

[Tom Oommen]

There was a question asked earlier about why we aren't pushing ahead with cargo pre-clearance now. Besides the fact that the agreement isn't in force yet, the other issue is, of course, that we have to learn how to do cargo pre-clearance. We don't have the decades of experience that we have with traveller pre-clearance. We have to learn how to secure loads. We have to learn how to make sure that we've done the necessary checks but haven't gone overboard, hence the importance of continuing to do pilots and of identifying new cargo pilots that build on the Pacific Highway and the Peace Bridge pilots that were done before.

We still have things to work out and to figure out. I think that once we've been through a round of those cargo pre-clearance pilots, we'll have a much better idea of, first, the economic opportunities and, second, what the actual costs of establishing cargo pre-clearance are.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you for that.

I'm going to switch gears and take you to clause 24. I have a question on X-rays. Under what circumstances would an X-ray search be the only alternative to effectively search a traveller? I'm thinking particularly, with respect to the backdrop of my question, of vulnerable segments of our population, including pregnant women and potentially people who are compromised because of existing medical conditions.

How often do we actually do X-rays? Are they required? Are there technologies that are really going to minimize, if not eliminate, cases where we have to resort to X-rays?

[Jill Wherrett]

I think I'll turn to Martin, who can speak to the actual details of when those kinds of searches are required in the CBSA context, which would be similar to the CBP context.

To be clear, in the legislation, those searches cannot be undertaken by an officer. They have to be undertaken by X-ray technicians with the consent of a physician, so it requires a physician's consent.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I appreciate that.

[Julie Watkinson]

The traveller has to consent as well.

[Jill Wherrett]

As well, yes.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Presumably, refusing consent means not being able to travel, or are there backstops? Are there alternatives to X-rays?

[Martin Bolduc]

An officer would have to believe that you had contraband inside of you. If I had contraband inside of me, I would not give you my agreement for an X-ray, and if I had nothing, then I would consent. It does not happen very often. I could provide the committee with statistics, if we compile them. I would have to confirm, but it's not something that's very common.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

If you have a pregnant female passenger with a suspicion of contraband, and hypothetically there is no contraband but she refuses, is the only alternative at this point for her to withdraw from the pre-clearance area?

[Martin Bolduc]

That's a very specific case. I would have to think about it. If we were to conduct that search, I've seen instances where we detain people up to 24 hours to do a bowel movement.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

So that's a third option. Okay.

[Martin Bolduc]

It could be, yes, and again, those cases are very specific.

Sorry about that, just before dinner, but it is the reality.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

That's our time.

Mr. Dubé, you have three minutes, if you would like.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have two final questions for the witnesses.

I would like to know who is giving the training we talked about earlier. The minister tells us that it is CBSA and other organizations. Can someone tell us who the other organizations are? Is there a list of the organizations that train American officers?

[Martin Bolduc]

We do not have a list like that, but it can be organizations responsible for airport security, the RCMP or CSIS. It's something that we could find.

The U.S. Customs and Border Protection also provides training for officers assigned here.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Is that listed somewhere?

[Martin Bolduc]

No, I do not have a list.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Okay.

It's essentially on an almost ad hoc basis, if there's no formal list or anything like that. If it's not codified somewhere, I'm not clear how that works.

[Martin Bolduc]

I can tell you that CBSA provides training, but there is no complete list of the other organizations that provide it.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

So basically, training is provided as needed.

[Martin Bolduc]

We could look for it.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

My last question deals with the locations in the United States where Canada will have preclearance.

On a trip I made to the United States, the people I asked said that it was not really part of the discussions. That surprised me. I asked the minister the question and he told me that it would be decided a little later.

Mr. Bolduc, you and your colleagues are involved in who will go where and other details like that. I don’t know whether these discussions are still ongoing and whether we will soon find out the locations in the United States.

[Jill Wherrett]

Martin, you may want to speak to that as well, but that's part of the work that lies before us in terms of establishing where pre-clearance might make sense in the U.S.

Again, it's economically driven. The U.S. has a process where they put out a call for pre-clearance applications and it's the airport authorities who apply. Similarly, for Canada to operate pre-clearance in the U.S., it would need to make sense for those airport authorities and for CBSA, because of course, while there is cost recovery, there are also costs incurred in going to the U.S. and operating pre-clearance.

[Martin Bolduc]

As the minister mentioned, we are discussing that issue with our American colleagues through a working committee. It depends on the volume of passengers leaving from American airports, on where we have the most return on our investment, and on whether the airport authorities have the space to build a preclearance area for us. Those are the things we are going to look at.

Our American colleagues are very open. In the discussions, they were ready to give us details about their tendering process. They are calling for tenders and airports are submitting them. That is how they are working at the moment. It’s something that we can learn from. American customs have been operating abroad for 60 years, while Canada is taking its first steps in the area. We could certainly learn from their experience and their expertise.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you.