Public Safety Committee on June 12th, 2017

[Malcolm Brown]

I can get you the specific definition, if you like. We can work through the minister's office and share the specific definition.

In reality, it's quite broad. It includes the health care sector, energy, electricity, financial services, and telecommunications. It is transportation and the full range of transportation. I think there are 13, and I'm forgetting them, but it's a pretty inclusive club. The reality is that usually in the electricity sector or the energy sector, there is lots of overlap between oil and gas, and renewable power generation in terms of hydro and nuclear.

The way I understand it, which is the way staff have briefed me on it and the most effective way of describing it, is any sector in which a failure or an interruption would result in a very significant impact, either in terms of public safety, the economy, or the environment.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

So oil and gas would certainly be part of this sector.

[Malcolm Brown]

Oh, absolutely.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay, excellent.

Who determines the criteria, please, for these absolutely required services, which are deemed to be worthy of critical infrastructure status, and therefore of the protection as allotted for within this definition?

[Malcolm Brown]

Well, I think it's been broadly determined by stakeholders. There's a critical infrastructure forum and network that works on this. There is, among the stakeholders, no one banging on the door trying to get in, so I think the definition is broadly understood and shared.

I'll have to get back to you as to whether or not it is actually an OIC or GIC regulatory requirement. I may have to correct the record later, but my sense is that it's not in a narrow legislative sense.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Do you have the opportunity, given your expertise and experience, to make recommendations in regard to what is determined to be critical infrastructure?

[Malcolm Brown]

Absolutely. I think the network and the community are assessing this all the time. It's also tightly interconnected, so if there is a vulnerability that emerges in a sector that people haven't been paying attention to, it's not an issue to be bringing this to the fore.

For example, without getting into specific details, there are some sectors that are much more developed and robust in their assessment of risks and that kind of thing, and other sectors that are not. Having a forum allows the advanced sectors to share lessons learned and provide advice to sectors that are developing.

I won't speak to which they are—not because they are particularly sensitive, but it's probably not appropriate for me to identify one sector that is less robust than another, just for the risk—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Would you say there are sectors that are more vulnerable?

[Malcolm Brown]

Sure, though in fact in some ways, cutting across the whole question of critical sectors, are horizontal issues like cybersecurity. You have a very robust sector like the financial services sector, and there are a lot of publicly available examples where the financial services sector has identified cybersecurity as a horizontal issue that makes them vulnerable. Even the most developed sectors are pretty focused, because they recognize what their vulnerabilities are and they're tackling them.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Would you consider oil and gas to be a more vulnerable critical infrastructure at this time?

[Malcolm Brown]

I would prefer not to get into a ranking because of my previous comments about identifying risks for people who might not be our friends.

[The Chair, Liberal, Rob Oliphant]

Thank you, Mr. Deputy.

We have time for one more Liberal for a five-minute round, and three minutes from the NDP.

Ms. Damoff, you'll begin.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you.

To our friends at CSIS, there was a decision that Justice Noel made with regard to metadata. First, I'm wondering if you could let us know what's going on with the data that was part of this decision. Second, have you developed a policy on what you're going to be doing with the metadata you collect?

[Jeff Yaworski]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, indeed. Since the decision of the Federal Court in relation to associated metadata, which is basically third-party, non-threat-related metadata— the context of communications, not the content—we've isolated all that information and developed policies with respect to moving forward with it. The courts have allowed us—

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Is this just with that data, or metadata in general? Are you still collecting metadata?

[Jeff Yaworski]

Yes. Of course, the metadata is collected under warranted authorities. The collection of metadata on targets of interest that generate operational reports, of course, was not part of the decision of Justice Noel with respect to associated metadata on, as he described it, individuals who haven't generated operational interest. As he described them, they are “innocent third parties”.

That information, that metadata, has been fenced and is not accessible with respect to individuals who are not targeted. We are going through a process right now. Procedures have been developed. The issue that's still outstanding is whether we'll be able to delete that metadata. We've developed a plan to do just that, but before we actually press the delete button, we want to run it by the minister, the Federal Court, and SIRC. So, we haven't pressed the delete button yet on that.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay, so you still have that. Going forward, do you have a policy on what happens with any...?

[Jeff Yaworski]

Yes, we do. The courts have allowed us a six-month window to determine whether or not all metadata collected under warrant should be retained—basically to determine whether it is of operational interest. In that six-month window, we have to make that decision. If it is of operational significance, if it relates to an operational report, a report is entered into our system and the metadata associated with those communications is retained. If it's not of an operational nature, then we will be deleting it.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay.

Mr. Brown, I don't know if you can answer this. You did not include any money in here for a redress system. I wonder if there was a reason. Is that something that would be dealt with only in the budget?

[Malcolm Brown]

We don't include anything; the government includes it. The government made a decision.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay, fair enough. That's fine.

In terms of the express entry system, you had some general questions earlier about CBSA's role. We've just announced some changes that will see the express entry system enhanced, particularly to do with siblings. I wonder if you could explain to us your role in that and how you'll be expediting those applications through CBSA.

[Tina Namiesniowski]

Mr. Chairman, in relation to discussing the actual program, I think the question is more rightly directed at our colleagues at IRCC, so I don't really have much to offer in response.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

That's fine.

[Tina Namiesniowski]

We play the role we always play as people come across our borders.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Keeping us safe, as you always do. Thank you.