Public Safety Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2017

[Martin Bolduc]

Yes.

Bill C-21 will give us the ability, at the request of an officer, to interview somebody who's leaving the country. Right now our authority is very limited.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I'm just talking about goods; not people, just goods.

[Martin Bolduc]

CBSA has the ability to do inspections on exports. If we suspect that goods are under the export control list, we have an ability to review and inspect. Bill C-21 will give us the ability to do so, because as you're leaving the country as a traveller, you always have goods with you—your suitcase is “goods”. Bill C-21 will give us the ability to do the inspection.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

The provisions in this legislation provide for not just a traveller and what they're carrying with them in a suitcase but the goods, the big goods, that leave this country.

[Martin Bolduc]

Commercial goods.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Commercial goods: thank you.

It would be reasonable to presume that, as much as resources are allocated for monitoring goods coming into the country, there is going to be a similar vigour to ensure that goods leaving the country are exposed to the same sort of testing. Will there be any additional funding allocated to carry out those inspections exiting our country, or will you be required to add that provision of this particular legislation with your current resources?

[Martin Bolduc]

At CBSA we adjust our workforce and where we have officers, based on the threats. We do that every single day. We move resources around to be able to address the threats. That will be part of our regular planning process. If for some reason we have information that would lead us to do more export examinations, then we would divert resources to those activities. Again, it's maintaining everything in equilibrium. Essentially, with the proposed amendments, we'll mirror our authorities on entry for export. The Customs Act will be balanced on both ends, for people and goods leaving and people and goods arriving.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

It was, Mr. Motz, an interesting discovery for me to find out that we actually have rules against smuggling in one direction but not the other, so we're trying to fill that gap.

Obviously, if CBSA requires additional resources in terms of manpower, technology, or other physical supports, they would make that request in the budget process, and the government would want to make sure that they've got what they need to do the job.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Mr. Minister, I appreciate that you many not be aware of this, but the Alberta riding I represent has all the border crossings in the province that are open seasonally or all year round, other than the one in Waterton, which is seasonal.

Do you envision this legislation requiring appropriate investments at border crossings, such as the one at the Port of Wild Horse, south of Elkwater, to meet the demand and the smooth flow of the goods and services as a result of the increased potential in this legislation?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Very briefly, please.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

We are assessing with CBSA their border capacity at different points across the country all the time. As you may suspect, over time the pressures change, depending on where the big flows are. The government tries its best to respond to that.

The CBSA will make its own assessment about where they see those pressure points. To some extent, they can address them by internal reallocation, but if it becomes clear that they simply don't have capacity to deal with the border pressure, CBSA would make a request to the government, and the government would try its very best to respond to it constructively.

Certainly, the crossing that you've referred to in the southern part of your riding is a very important one in the international movement of people and goods, and we would want to see that it's properly staffed and supported in all the other ways to make it efficient and safe.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Motz. You will be pleased to know that the minister was here for the previous, previous, previous, previous, previous, previous government.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Arseneault, you have the final five minutes.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you very much for being here. Thank you for your clear and unambiguous answers.

My questions will be about the clause 92(1) proposed in the bill and will follow up on one of the questions asked by my colleague Matthew Dubé. The proposed clause 92(1) says the following: “In relation to any person ... the Agency may collect, from a prescribed source” the information we are talking about. In English, the word “may” is used. We know that, in law, there's a huge difference between “may” and “shall”.

or, in English, “shall” or “may”.

I would really like to know what the reasoning behind that is. Why is it discretionary? Why is the agency given the option to collect information on a discretionary basis?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Martin might want to comment as well.

Mr. Arseneault, the drafting here is on the advice of the Department of Justice, which, in the creation of these powers, always expresses it in terms of permission. CBSA has, by virtue of proposed subsection 92(1), the authority to collect. The precise details, as per Monsieur Dubé's question in terms of the modalities of that collection, will be laid out in regulations, and that is also a public process that brings with it due scrutiny.

The choice of the word “may” is the best considered advice of the Department of Justice that this is the proper way to give the agency the authority it requires to take the actions that are laid out in Bill C-21.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Okay.

Perhaps Mr. Bolduc could answer my next question.

In practical terms, how can the agency decide whether it should collect specific information on a passenger or whether, in other cases—for example, for flight travel—the information should not be collected? Practically speaking, how does the agency decide whether or not to collect information?

[Martin Bolduc]

As the minister explained in his opening remarks, that exchange will be done systematically. Airlines will send the agency flight manifests with a list of all passengers. No company can decide to include one group of passengers and exclude another. It will be done systematically through the computing platform. So all the information will be sent to the agency.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

The first step is to collect information on all passengers, every time.

[Martin Bolduc]

Yes, for all passengers and every time.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

That's correct.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you.

Still in the proposed clause 92(1), it says, “from a prescribed source”. Aside from passports and NEXUS cards, are there any other sources you can think of?

[Martin Bolduc]

If I may, Andrew, the “source” of information is....

[Andrew Lawrence]

At the land border it's U.S. Customs and Border Protection, through a reciprocal exchange under this provision. That's how it would be regulated. Under proposed section 93, that gives the agency the authority to prescribe or to compel airlines and air carriers to submit outbound flight manifests. This particular section is about collection of exit information. It gives the agency the authority to collect exit information and to identify in regulations who we receive that information from, the timing, the manner, and the circumstances.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

So a passport is not necessarily the source of information.