Public Safety Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Let me bring this meeting to order.

This is meeting 75 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. For the first hour, we are privileged to welcome the Honourable Ralph Goodale, Minister of Public Safety and Emergency, for his views on Bill C-21.

Mr. Goodale.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, good morning.

I'm sure you would all like to join me this morning in expressing our deep concern with respect to the two very serious incidents that occurred this past weekend, one in Edmonton and the other in Las Vegas. These circumstances are horrendous in our free and open and democratic society. It's at times like these that we all pull together to support each other and to applaud our first responders on both sides of the border, who have done extraordinary work. We extend our thoughts and prayers to the victims and the families and the loved ones, and we hope for the speedy and full recovery of those who have been injured. We make the emphatic point that events like this will not divide us, nor will they intimidate us. Police investigations are obviously ongoing; they're at a very early stage. A lot more information will be forthcoming in due course, but we I'm sure stand in solidarity with one another within our country and across the border when these kinds of sorry events occur.

Mr. Chairman, with respect to this meeting and this topic, this is my first opportunity to be before the committee since the return of Parliament, so welcome to you as the new chair. I notice some other new faces on all sides of the table, and some old-timers too. To all of you, welcome, and thank you for the invitation to be here today. I look forward to a very good relationship with the committee.

We begin, of course, with BillC-21. I'm joined today by Martin Bolduc, who is vice-president of the Canada Border Services Agency; Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère, who is director general of the traveller program directorate within CBSA; and Andrew Lawrence, who is the acting executive director of the traveller program directorate.

The bill that we're here to discuss will at long last enable Canada to keep track of not only who enters our country but also who leaves it. If that sounds pretty fundamental, actually it is. But there has been a gap in our border system for a great many years that we are now proposing to close with Bill C-21. I would point out that many other countries, including all of our Five Eyes allies, already collect this information that is commonly known as “exit” data. Canada, with Bill C-21, will catch up to those other countries and fill the gap.

The information that we're talking about is simply the basic identification information that is found on page 2 of everyone's passport, along with the time and the place of departure. It's the same simple identification information that all travellers willingly hand over when they cross the border. When you cross into the United States, you show your passport and the border officers take note of the information on page 2. It's that information that we're talking about here: name, date, place of birth, nationality, gender, and the issuing authority of the travel document.

The way this information will be collected is really quite straightforward, and travellers should notice no difference at all in the process. For people leaving Canada by air, the air carrier will collect that information, as it already does from passenger manifests, and it will give it to the Canada Border Services Agency before departure. For people crossing by land into the United States, American officials collecting this information, as they already do in the form of entry data, will then send it back to CBSA where it will serve as exit data. This will work in the same way in reverse for travellers crossing into Canada from the United States. The experience from the point of the view of the traveller will be absolutely unchanged.

With this information in hand, Canadian officials will be better able to deal with cross-border crime, including child abductions and human trafficking. It will strengthen our ability to prevent radicalized individuals from travelling to join terrorist groups overseas. It will help ensure the integrity of benefit programs where residency requirements are part of the eligibility criteria. It will also ensure that immigration officials have complete and accurate information when they do their jobs. They won't waste a lot of time dealing with people who have already left the country.

Finally, the legislation also addresses a concern raised in the Auditor General's report in the fall of 2015 about the need for stronger measures to combat the unlawful export of controlled or dangerous goods. Bill C-21 will amend the Customs Act to prohibit smuggling controlled goods out of Canada. Currently, and this may be a surprise to some people, only smuggling “into” Canada is prohibited. The new legislation will give border officers the authorities regarding outbound goods similar to the ones they already have for inbound goods.

Mr. Chair, I followed closely the second reading debate in the House about Bill C-21. There were not a lot of specific issues raised, but there was one mentioned by Mr. Dubé that I would like to respond to. It had to do with this issue of the sharing of information with the United States. I was concerned that there seemed to be a view that any exchange of information with the U.S. was inherently a bad thing.

I think we should keep in mind that the process of Canadian and U.S. authorities working together and exchanging information, pursuant to laws and agreements and subject to oversight, is essential for our mutual security. For example, when Canadian authorities were able to take action in Strathroy, Ontario, last summer to prevent a planned terrorist attack, that was due to an exchange of information with the United States. Because of that, the RCMP and local police authorities were able to prevent a much larger tragedy. Working in concert with our American partners, and exchanging information with them according to the rules, is very important to our national interests. It supports having the longest, most open, successful international boundary in the history of the world.

The key questions are these: what kind of information is to be shared, with what safeguards, and for what purposes? Bill C-21 provides very clear answers. What kind of information? As I said, it's the basic identification data, on page 2 of our passports, that we all offer up whenever we cross a border. It's worth pointing out that if Canada is sharing this information with the United States, that is only because the person in question has just come into Canada from the United States, to whom they necessarily gave the same information upon entry. It's not new or expanded information beyond the fact that they have left. That's the sum and substance of the data that is involved.

What safeguards are in place? To begin with, the government has engaged proactively throughout this whole process with the Privacy Commissioner. That engagement continues. You can find the privacy impact assessments of the current and previous phases of entry/exit implementation on the CBSA website. A new assessment will be updated once the new legislation is actually in effect.

In addition, exchange of information both within Canada and with the U.S. will be subject to formal agreements that will include information management safeguards, privacy protection clauses, and mechanisms to address any potential problems.

All of this will be happening in the context of the most robust national security accountability structure that Canada has ever had. We've already passed Bill C-22, which creates the new National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians. Add to that Bill C-59, introduced in the spring, which will create a new national security and intelligence review agency. And as you know, we have proactively, in the last number of days, released new ministerial directives about information sharing that have been broadly applauded as significant advancements.

Finally, what purpose does the exchange of information serve? As I've outlined, it will help Canadian authorities do everything from combatting cross-border crime to preventing terrorist travel to improving the management of social benefits and immigration programs. But to give you a concrete example, if it's discovered one evening that a child is missing, police can do a check of the exit records to see if the child left the country earlier that day, where, at what time, and in whose company. That is obviously immensely helpful to investigators working collaboratively on both sides of the border in their efforts to recover the child and catch the kidnapper. For that reason alone, I hope the committee will see fit to report this bill back to the House with all deliberate speed.

I thank you for your attention, Mr. Chair, and look forward to questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister Goodale.

I will take this opportunity to mention to colleagues that we should try to confine ourselves to relevance to Bill C-21 as much as possible; indulge your chair that way.

Without further admonition, may I call upon Mr. Spengemann.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Chair, thank you very much.

Minister Goodale, it's good to have you back. Thank you as well to your staff, your team, for being here with us this morning.

Bill C-21, as you just outlined, pursues a number of very laudable objectives, including the amber alerts, safeguarding against radicalized individuals travelling, the fraud and abuse of social benefit programs that can be prevented, and also overstays. I represent a riding that is not only very proximate to Pearson airport; I also have constituents who take advantage of Pearson airport regularly for both business travel and leisure travel. I'm wondering if you could comment a little on the volume and resourcing concerns, if any, under this bill.

The GTAA has approached a number of us in the Toronto area with respect to.... This past summer it was our 150th, so volumes have been high. Pearson airport is on a trajectory of increased growth. How do you see this bill coming into the question of wait times, of processing volumes, and potentially additional resourcing for the airport to do its job effectively?

I'm asking particularly with respect to a large number of seniors in my riding, many of whom are snowbirds travelling to the United States. With respect to the export of goods, personal goods, would they be facing any additional wait times, in your projection, when they go through Pearson airport and other border facilities?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I'll ask Martin to comment on this as well, Mr. Spengemann, but the design of this system was deliberately structured in such a way to make it effective but as unobtrusive as possible. When personal identification needs to be done, it does not add a new layer of activity. It simply uses the existing activity for a dual purpose.

You always show your passport to get your boarding pass, which automatically records the information at that point, or, if you're going through a land border, you show your passport to the American officer on the other side. That one act, which is already what you have to do to cross the border, is all that's required. Then either the airline manifest is shared with CBSA so they can record the activity, or the American officers return it to the CBSA automatically and electronically. So the structure of this is designed to be as seamless as possible, and the traveller should not notice any difference.

Martin, on the inspection of goods, could you add a comment in terms of whether that has the potential to slow things at the border?

[Martin Bolduc, Vice-President, Programs Branch, Canada Border Services Agency]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you for your question. As the minister stated, we're not introducing physical border controls. As an average traveller, you should not encounter a border services officer at the departure gate if you're leaving Pearson airport. That will be seamless to the traveller. But if we have reason to interview someone, then the bill will give us the ability to do so.

As for your question on the snowbirds—if I may, Minister—travellers to the U.S. are already providing that information to the U.S. border services. So we're not collecting additional information. That information is provided by people when they cross the border.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

That's helpful. Thank you very much for that.

With respect to the export of goods, is there a quantitative threshold similar to the importation of goods, at which point seniors or anybody travelling would have to declare what they have on them? In other words, is there a personal exemption that's anticipated, or would you at some point along the way of travelling have to declare anything that you carry with you, that you take out of the country, including a tube of toothpaste?

[Martin Bolduc]

There are specific requirements on export, but for the general public there is no personal exemption. So you will be able to leave the country with your personal goods if you're travelling for either business or pleasure.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

That's helpful. Thank you.

Minister Goodale, with respect to countries involved in this, it seems that the bill, as you framed it, is U.S.-Canada-centric, and for very obvious reasons; it's because of the intertwined nature of our two countries. What other countries are involved, and what other regulatory regimes? For example, we've just concluded the Canada-Europe trade agreement. Are there similar arrangements in place with European countries—when travellers enter the European Union or exit from the European Union to come to Canada?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Most other countries do have an exit regime where they actually collect the information—not every country, but most do.

Martin, can you provide more detail?

[Martin Bolduc]

Yes.

As the minister explained, the sharing of information will occur at the land border with the U.S. Information collected by the CBSA on exit will remain within the Government of Canada for the Government of Canada, either law enforcement or social programs. There's no provision at this point to share that information with any other countries.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you very much.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I'll just add one point that may be helpful. Some seniors may be concerned about issues related to their benefits under old age security, or their benefits in relation to medicare. With respect to OAS, once a person has lived in Canada as an adult for 20 years, residency ceases to be a factor in terms of their eligibility for OAS. They can decide to live anywhere they want in the world, as long as they've lived 20 years as an adult in Canada. Their pension then becomes fully portable wherever they wish to take it. Bill C-21 would be irrelevant to that.

With respect to medicare, because that is administered provincially, the information is shared only with federal authorities, not with provincial authorities.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Chair, I think that's just about my time. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have the floor for seven minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, Mr. Bolduc, good morning.

Minister, in February 2011, you said the following in the House of Commons:

“If we have a common entry and common exit system, does it not follow that Canada no longer has sovereign Canadian control over immigration and refugees?”

Do you still believe this?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

First of all, Mr. Paul-Hus, congratulations on your appointment as the official representative of the opposition in these matters. I haven't had a chance to say that yet, but congratulations on your appointment.

With respect to that debate that was taking place in 2011, I think if you check the context of the discussion I was having with the government of the day, it had to do with the discussion then about establishing a common perimeter around North America. It wasn't the cross-border relationship between Canada and the United States but whether we should have in effect a North American boundary. That was the issue that raised questions about Canadian sovereignty. The discussion later on went in a much different direction, so those issues didn't emerge. My comment that has been referred to was in relation to the common North American perimeter, not the cross-border traffic between Canada and the U.S.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

My next question, which is for the representatives of the Canada Border Services Agency, will apply if Bill C-45 is passed and becomes law.

How will CBSA officials deal with cases where they find marijuana among the goods Canadian travellers are taking with them abroad?

[Martin Bolduc]

As we have explained, the underlying intent of Bill C-21 is not to introduce physical controls on exit. If you have travelled in Europe, you know that those controls are done when people present their passport to an officer on exiting Schengen countries. That is not the case in Canada.

If we have information that an individual will break the law by leaving the country, we could intercept them under the provisions of Bill C-21, whether they are carrying drugs or any other controlled goods. However, you won't see border services officers behind a counter at boarding gates in Canadian airports.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Currently, screening is easier in airports because passengers register prior to boarding.

With Bill C-21 still not in force, is there a system the airline can use to inform you if an individual is identified?

[Martin Bolduc]

No. Airline companies currently provide us with information on arrival.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

So it is done when the passenger goes to the counter.

[Martin Bolduc]

Bill C-21 will allow airlines to provide us with the passenger manifest at the time of departure.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

So you have time to intervene and arrest someone who is trying to leave.

[Martin Bolduc]

Exactly. We have a certain amount of time to react. The airline accesses the information and transmits it to us within a short time frame. When someone registers online, the information will be sent to the agency, and we will be able to take action.