Public Safety Committee on Oct. 5th, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yes, I know.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Thank you all for your contributions and for being here.

First, I think one of the hot topics related to Bill C-21 is the information sharing. So, for the benefit of those following the discussions from outside, could you once again talk about the procedure you follow to obtain information and how you might use the information and pass it on, if applicable?

Is that possible?

[Mieke Bos]

I will answer in part, and perhaps I will ask my colleague Mr. Daigle to elaborate on the procedure.

In terms of exchange of information, there are two layers of exchange of information. There is the higher level exchange of information between Canada and the United States. That part, as you've heard earlier, Monsieur Picard, is in the hands of CBSA. They have an agreement with the United States. We are not directly implicated in that.

IRCC has an understanding, an arrangement with CBSA in terms of our accessing the entry-exit information once the system is up and running.

I have to stress though, that we already have the right to collect this information. This is not new. IRCC, under the Customs Act, has the right to collect entry-exit information from persons leaving and entering Canada. The entry-exit system will provide automatic...or will facilitate the access to this information.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

The access you have is what is actually exchanged. This is everything for Canadian citizens or U.S. citizens, but it is actually under the agreement.

[Mieke Bos]

Yes. Currently we don't have access to exit information. We can ask on a case-by-case basis, and of course, CBSA only has partial information at this point in time.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Yes.

[Mieke Bos]

That is only what is collected at the land border and not from Canadian citizens.

Marc-André.

[Marc-André Daigle, Director, Strategic Initiatives and Global Case Management System Coordination, Immigration Program Guidance, Department of Citizenship and Immigration]

Thank you for the question.

Mr. Chair, let me clarify the issue a little and add to my colleague's comments.

In terms of legislative mechanisms or memoranda of understanding, there is

a statement of mutual understanding

and those mechanisms allow for the sharing of data between the two departments.

As my colleague explained, in terms of the procedure and the sharing of entry and exit information, the data will be taken from the agency. The development of the systems will enable our departmental officials to access information and send requests through those systems. This will make it possible to have a copy or a version of that information, which will be based on the criteria, or the biographical data, covered in the bill. This will also make it possible to check whether clients have applied in the past and whether we know them. As a result, we will be able to add information to the person's travel history.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Once the information is sent, does it become your “property”, to the extent that you have the discretionary power to either send or not send the information to a third party requesting it?

There are concerns that a provincial government or a provincial agency might contact you to request that information.

What happens there exactly?

[Mieke Bos]

To the best of my knowledge, we access the information from CBSA but only when we're processing an application, so it's IRCC immigration information. To the best of my knowledge, we do not connect with provinces on this.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

It stops there.

[Mieke Bos]

Ms. Deault-Bonin, do you have anything to add?

[Emmanuelle Deault-Bonin, Director, Identity Management and Information Sharing, Admissibility, Department of Citizenship and Immigration]

Yes, thank you.

The information supports an IRCC decision. It's a piece of the puzzle that we consider together with all the other pieces of the puzzle we have, whether it's the information provided by the applicant in their application or the information that we have gathered. We then make a decision.

Let me give you an example. If we receive a request for information on an individual's entry and exit, we will direct the requesters to the CBSA, which is, first and foremost, responsible for that data.

However, if someone asks us to confirm whether an individual is actually a Canadian citizen, we will take care of the request and answer the question. The agreement that Mr. Daigle mentioned helps to clarify the responsibilities, because we work very closely with the CBSA.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Very well.

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I don't have much time left. I have one final question, which is very important to me.

You mentioned that the entry-exit system “will close a knowledge gap”. Did you mean completely or partially?

[Mieke Bos]

We currently do not have exit information, so we rely on our clients to provide that information. First of all, clients are not always good at keeping their own records. Actually, there's an initiative started in our client service departments whereby clients are going to get a little insert in their passport to keep track of their movements.

We rely on the information that clients provide us. This can be timely and cumbersome. Sometimes, for a citizenship application or for a permanent residency card, they have to submit secondary information to prove that they were in Canada. Most clients are bona fide and we have absolutely no problem trusting the information they provide, but there are people who are trying to defraud the system. At that point in time, we have to do a lot of work to investigate. This will just provide an objective non-disputed base of information, so it closes an important gap.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Thank you very much for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Picard.

Ms. Gallant, you have seven minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Right now there is a disconnect between your department and CBSA. Your website instructs people to validate a confirmation of permanent residence or permanent resident visa. If they live in Canada, they are told to go to a Canadian border if they can't get an appointment at an office near them.

People go to the border, but in order to go to a Canadian border agent, they have to travel into the United States. They're in the United States, for example, and then they provide their information or their application for permanent residency to the CBSA. The CBSA agent says they are there illegally, when the person is genuinely trying to follow the steps as set out in terms of getting a permanent residency card. They're left stranded. They have to get an airline ticket, go back, and then they face the prospect of never returning again, because of this disconnect.

How do we know that same disconnect that exists for people legally trying to apply for permanent residency isn't going to have grave consequences for law-abiding Canadians when this is implemented?

[Mieke Bos]

I have heard those stories with the scenario you are referring to, but this falls outside of my area of expertise. The entry-exit information will apply to everyone leaving Canada, which is information that we currently don't have. The purpose of this information is for us to establish whether the clients applying for permanent residency or citizenship have met the residency requirements. We are legislated to do that.

The committee will have followed the Bill C-6 proceedings. Bill C-6 will come into effect shortly, and it determines exactly what the residency requirements are for future citizens. As I explained before, currently we rely on the information from the client. The vast majority of clients are entirely legitimate, of course, but there are cases of abuse, so this allows us to objectively verify when applicants were in Canada and when they left.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay, so let's look at people who are trying to avoid following the rules.

Instead of going to a regular border crossing, they're going to look for your weakest point. Aside from what we are seeing right now with the illegal crossings into Canada, there are several bodies of water between Canada and the United States, for example. Somebody can take a pleasure craft, go across the river at the Thousand Islands, and just decide not to check in. They are supposed to by law, but maybe they don't.

What sorts of safeguards or measures are you going to put in place to ensure that the most likely points of crossing for somebody who is trying to avoid being recorded as leaving Canada are captured as well in your data system?

[Mieke Bos]

The management of the borders is really the responsibility of the CBSA.

As IRCC, we're less well placed to comment on how CBSA would manage those scenarios.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

That would be incomplete data collection. It seems to me that if the purpose of the bill is to ensure that we know who's coming and going, even though it's CBSA, it should still be relevant to the immigration department to keep track of this.

Do the officials know why the data exit information is going to be shared with CRA? What is the rationale behind that, in terms of making sure we have legal immigration and we're keeping track of people for permanent residency purposes?

[Mieke Bos]

We focus on immigration-related purposes. The customs and collections aspect of this bill is of less immediate or direct relevance to the immigration department.

First and foremost, I would say that the benefit of this bill will be to establish residency requirements and to document overstays. Temporary residents, for example, are normally not allowed to stay more than six months on a normal visa or eTA. If they overstay in Canada, we will be able to establish that.

I don't believe that the immigration department is best placed to answer tax questions.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Back to land borders that are non-official ports of entry, why or why wouldn't the information or that kind of data be useful in non-official ports of entry?

[Mieke Bos]

Again, the management of the border is CBSA's responsibility, but if someone enters Canada illegally, as we are seeing now, the system couldn't work because we wouldn't have an exit record and we wouldn't have an entry record. Only when the individual would be detained....

The system is intended to work at established border points, including airports in the air mode.