Public Safety Committee on Oct. 5th, 2017

[Mieke Bos]

Thank you for the question.

I will turn to my colleagues. Emmanuelle's daily bread and butter is identity management and privacy, so I may ask her to provide a little more detail.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Sure. It's a much more complicated life than I lead.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Emmanuelle Deault-Bonin]

It's a great question. Thank you.

One of the things that we do in collaborating with CBSA on privacy is to look first at doing privacy by design. When we're working together in enforcing and administering our immigration laws, how can we do this exchanging of information in a way that's necessary, relevant, and proportionate?

I think this is a good example in that, first, the data elements that we're sharing are minimal. It's really just what we need to answer the questions. As well, the way we do it is through a privacy lens. We're not diving into a database and just trying to make our way though it. It is through a query and response system, when we have an applicant in front of us and when we need it.

That's the work that my colleague and I do on a day-to-day basis, but we also, obviously, work together in engaging the OPC. They're a very important partner in providing feedback on those privacy questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fragiskatos.

Mr. Motz, you have five minutes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your attendance today. I just have a couple of questions.

Do you feel that the information you'll be collecting with regard to Bill C-21 will reduce IRCC's workload? If it reduces workload, will it also reduce costs?

[Mieke Bos]

Will it reduce workloads? We believe so. Currently we have to do a lot of this verification manually, and again, rely on the accuracy of the client's data keeping, if you like. Again, it can be quite a cumbersome process for our officers to verify and establish that the residency requirements, indeed, have been met.

To come to your point on cost savings, as always, once we enter into the regulatory phase, we do a cost-benefit analysis. I've seen some initial analysis, but I couldn't say, hand on heart, that this will be a cost-saving measure. I do know that it will definitely reduce the workload of our officers. We will go from a manual case-by-case, established sometimes on incomplete information, to a systematic verification of information.

I'll ask my colleague to elaborate.

[Marc-André Daigle]

In terms of the direct impact on cost, that's a very interesting question. I fully appreciate it, but it's quite complex in terms of being able to provide the metrics that support it. I would like to provide a little bit of the qualitative in terms of how this will have an overall impact through our entire processing network.

As you understand, we have offices in Canada and also all around the world. If I'm looking just in terms of the investigation clients where there are active cases, it can take place initially when an application is being processed overseas, but it can also make its way all the way through by the time the person is in Canada or there is information sharing between our different units. It's the time invested in building the case for the investigation, but also the cost of accessing that information. If it's a large-scale investigation, and there are more federal partners involved, then it adds to the cost.

I don't really have the breakdown. This was just to provide a snapshot in terms of the overall impact that will have.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

You alluded that there are some preliminary analysis or estimates. If it's possible at this point in time to provide those to the committee, that would be awesome. Thank you.

How will immigration and the CBSA go through correcting information that is discovered to be erroneous, and how is that going to be cross-referenced and shared? Is there any thought as to how that process is going to occur?

[Mieke Bos]

There's expected to be a very high degree of accuracy. Flight manifests are pretty black and white in terms of the information they provide. There will be automated systems at border exit points. Of course, there is always the possibility of an error, so the two organizations will be working together in case we come across faulty information.

Marc-André.

[Marc-André Daigle]

Just to add to that in terms of how it will work, if there is a conflict or erroneous information, in terms of taking a step back, when we're looking at the datasets that will be used or collected in terms of entry-exit, it is quite minimal in terms of the key tombstone information on page two of the passport, complemented by place, time, date, and location of departure.

In terms of making the identity management, in terms of reconciling our own historical client-based information, there is a potential that either.... If we look at clients who have common names, for example, there is a risk that there could be duplicates or a mismatch. Therefore, officers would be reviewing these and then making that determination, based on the historical information that we have, to see if they are the person or not. If they are not, then we would not retain that information. It would be purged.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

Mr. Arseneault, you have the floor for five minutes.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

My thanks to the witnesses for being here today. Their remarks are very enlightening.

Ms. Bos, I have a practical question.

I see how the ease of access to the information on page 2 of the passport will benefit you. That's clear from this bill, which amends the Customs Act. I imagine that not all immigration and other claims come from the United States.

According to paragraphs 92(1)(a), (b) and (c) proposed in Bill C-21, the place of arrival in the United States must be disclosed. When you process all your applications, is the information that you would receive pursuant to paragraphs 92(1)(a), (b) and (c) about anyone coming from a country other than the U.S. relevant? If someone did a Somalia-Canada return trip rather than the U.S.-Canada, would that affect your investigations? How do you see that?

[Mieke Bos]

I hope I understand the question correctly and I apologize if I did not. Obviously, we already have the entry information. If a foreign national comes in by air, the person passes CBSA, so we have the entry information. What the system will now provide is the exit information, which is currently a gap. In most countries, in Europe and the United States, exit information is pretty systematically collected. Really what it helps us to establish is the travel history of the client. With the coming into force of this legislation, our colleagues at the border services agency will be able to collect this information at all entry and exit points, both at the land border and in the air mode.

Again, I hope I understood the question correctly.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

You understood the question correctly. Good job. It's true that it was poorly worded.

The CBSA will have the information about the exit of someone coming from Belgium, for instance, when they arrive in Canada, but pursuant to proposed paragraph 92(1)(c), it would not know their destination. Have I understood that paragraph properly?

[Mieke Bos]

This is correct, but for the purposes of this legislation it is not really relevant to us. What we need to know is whether the applicant was inside or outside of Canada.

If that person was in Belgium or Somalia, in terms of this bill, it would not concern us as much, if you will.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

The exit is what matters most for your investigations, correct?

[Mieke Bos]

Absolutely.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Great.

The proposed subsection 92(1) refers to the sources from which the agency would collect the information, which it would then forward to you in compliance with proposed paragraph 107(5)(j), if I'm not mistaken.

Do you have any reason to believe that, somewhere in the world, there are sources that are not really reliable or is that not at all an issue for the agency?

[Mieke Bos]

This is written in a way to cover different sources, but normally this would be the passport. Page two of the passport contains the biographic information and that is what would normally be the source of the information. This is more about how our colleagues from the CBSA will handle this information.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Yes.

[Mieke Bos]

What matters for us is what is entered into the system and that we then have access to it.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Do I still have time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have 30 seconds.

[René Arseneault, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

From what I understand, the source is not the passport. The information comes from the passport, page two, but the source is maybe the foreign country, which provides the information.

Are sources from different places in the world just as reliable as the resources you have right now to find that information?