Evidence of meeting #76 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
9:10 a.m.
Director, Privacy, Technology and Surveillance Project, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
I would agree. I think there's relatively minimal impact. Our concerns are around making sure that the system designed to store and retain this information is secure, to the extent that it's needed, and that privacy protections are in place.
One of the concerns with collecting information—my fellow presenter mentioned it—is around function creep. Something that's not mentioned in this bill is biometric information. In particular, if this is something that would later lay a foundation for the collection of that information to be added to this, it's really important that the infrastructures be secure.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
If we go to that, there would be further discussions with respect to biometrics being collected, and I think that's the time that we'd need—
9:10 a.m.
Director, Privacy, Technology and Surveillance Project, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Yes, absolutely.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
At this point, it would seem, for the most part, that it's not intrusive on Canadians' rights. One of the things that all of us frequently hear is that when somebody gets to the American side, there is questioning on the American side of Canadians going in, but that has nothing to do with the collection of this information. Would both of you agree with that?
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Once we've collected the information—and we've already been told that there will be some sharing with other government agencies with respect to government benefit programs and so on—what does that raise with respect to your concerns on privacy?
9:10 a.m.
Director, Privacy, Technology and Surveillance Project, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
I think, whatever information is being shared, it's incumbent on us to make sure it's accurate and that there's a way for people to challenge the accuracy. It might be appropriate—and this is outside the scope of the bill—to think about whether or not the regulations.... If people are going to be penalized for leaving the country, we should make sure that regulations are in place and that the rules around when you're allowed to leave and when you can come back are reasonable in relation to old age security and unemployment. Again, that's outside the scope of this bill.
9:10 a.m.
As an Individual
I think the key is transparency, so that Canadians know what the rules are, that they know how and under what circumstances that information can be shared outside of CBSA, and that there are safeguards to ensure that it doesn't mushroom into something that Parliament didn't intend.
9:10 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Would you agree that someone who feels information has been shared with another government agency that has brought them into question with respect to receiving benefits to which they may or may not have been entitled have that appeal process within the organization that's providing the benefits? I don't know that CBSA would necessarily be part of the equation there. If it's your documentation that's forwarded back, I guess the only issue would be whether it was accurate information to begin with.
9:10 a.m.
As an Individual
There are several fundamental privacy principles, and one of them is the ability to challenge information that's incorrect. In this situation, what it comes down to is where that information is held and where should that challenge occur. Would it occur at CBSA, or would it occur with one of the other agencies that it may be shared with?
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Okay.
What weaknesses do you see in the system? We'll start with Mr. Jacksch.
9:15 a.m.
As an Individual
I don't see any. As I mentioned in my opening statement, I think that the third area of concern, ensuring that there isn't an unintended expansion in the use of that information, is critical. That would be my primary concern, and I suggest that the committee carefully consider if it would be appropriate to put some additional restrictions on that use. We have other government departments with similar approaches, and that may be helpful.
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Mr. Chair, I'm wondering if Ms. McPhail could answer the same question.
9:15 a.m.
Director, Privacy, Technology and Surveillance Project, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
In terms of weaknesses of the systems for information collection and storage, I'm not sure that we can see what those weaknesses are. The committee, frankly, would be in a better position to interrogate those systems.
In terms of weaknesses in the way that the framing around the collection of this information is done, I'd just go back to my point that basically every detail about the information that's going to be collected is left to be prescribed in regulations. We might want to consider whether that's entirely appropriate or whether some of those details should be included in the legislation just so it's really clear what we're collecting, how it can be collected, and from whom. How do we ensure the integrity of that information if we can't interrogate those facts?
9:15 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Mr. MacKenzie.
Mr. Dubé, you have the floor for seven minutes.
October 5th, 2017 / 9:15 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. McPhail, when it comes to information sharing, I think I understood the minister's answer correctly when I asked him this question on Tuesday, but is one of the concerns the fact that, with what was formerly Bill C-51, we already have the information sharing regime in place between government agencies, so this information being collected can be shared pretty broadly throughout different agencies that don't necessarily have the same accountability mechanisms in place as, for example, some of the national security agencies might have?
9:15 a.m.
Director, Privacy, Technology and Surveillance Project, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Yes. I think that is the case. It's possible that the revisions under Bill C-59 will ever so slightly limit some of those concerns in relation to stricter proportionality requirements around sharing.
Still, once information is shared under that agreement, we don't know how far it can go, and again that brings up the concerns about whether the uses of that information will be limited to what it was collected for.
9:15 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Thank you.
I want to clarify some aspects. You mentioned the importance of redress and being able to refer to an independent body in the event of mistaken identity or erroneous information. Hopefully I'm not misstating what was expressed, but when I asked CBSA the question about what type of redress system would be in place, they essentially seemed to imply that the person would have to deal with whatever government agency was in question.
For example, if you were looking at a situation with regard to old age security and you felt that somehow some issue was brought up about when you actually left the country, you would have to deal with the ministry responsible for administering OAS as opposed to having any proper recourse with regard to CBSA.
Do you feel that this is accurate, and if so, do you think we can amend the bill or bring in even larger changes beyond the scope of this to make sure that CBSA remains accountable for the accuracy of that information?
9:15 a.m.
Director, Privacy, Technology and Surveillance Project, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
It would be entirely appropriate to include a provision that, when collecting and sharing information that can have such very significant effects on individual Canadians, CBSA be responsible for accuracy. There should be some process for interrogating the accuracy of that information in an appeals process, and the onus to certify that accuracy should be on CBSA and not individuals or other organizations that are not responsible for collecting it or maintaining it.
9:15 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC
Okay. Thank you.
We talked about the risk of profiling. It's an interesting piece, because one of the things that seems to be emphasized here is to not be worried because it's only page 2 of the passport. When we look at things such as the country issuing the document of citizenship or nationality, and when we see how people who are Canadian citizens have been treated at the border, is there any concern that despite the fact that the information is very specific and limited, there's nonetheless enough in there for someone to infer things that might not be the case, especially when one of the stated intentions of the bill is to go after people who might radicalize or supposedly radicalized individuals who might be leaving the country for nefarious reasons?