Public Safety Committee on Oct. 5th, 2017

[Eric Jacksch]

All I'm saying is that there are some risks that need to be managed, and I believe the government has the appropriate approaches to secure it.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Monsieur Picard.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for paying attention to a most sensitive issue that falls under the values of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms: privacy protection.

You said that you're getting more and more calls and messages with people's fears about their privacy protection. In addition, your organization made its own comments. You said you are concerned about the negative impact of the exchange of information prompted by Bill C-21.

Are those concerns and comments the result of a misunderstanding of Bill C-21? Do you believe that this bill focuses on sharing information that is limited basically to what is on page 2 of the passport and some logistical information? If not, do your concerns simply stem from an analysis based on hypothetical situations and speculations?

[Brenda McPhail]

It's important to remember that in the age of big data and data aggregation, small pieces of information that seem inconsequential matter more when they're combined with others. The fact that this information is going to be collected doesn't just mean that someone is only ever going to be looking at the tiny pieces of data that are collected under this bill. This bill is adding to the amount of data that can be collected and aggregated with other information that's known about people.

Knowing, by itself, when someone comes in or leaves can be very useful information in a variety of ways, and it seems harmless, but it's very difficult to predict what any one of the organizations on either side of the border who has access to this information might do with it when it's combined with other things.

It's a hypothetical and general warning. We know that information when combined becomes more powerful.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Jacksch,

You come from the intelligence community. I wanted to ask you about the period of time we can hold on to the information. We talked about 15 years. I want your perspective on this period of time, knowing that from the intelligence standpoint, information sometimes becomes useful after a number of years. Therefore, if you limit it too much you may prevent further investigation, not knowing at the time that this information might be useful.

[Eric Jacksch]

There is some period of time for which the information is useful. I can't tell you from an intelligence perspective what that time frame is. That would be a good discussion between CBSA, the relevant intelligence agencies, and the Privacy Commissioner, to find that balance of keeping information for an appropriate period of time but not for too long.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Do you believe, then, if you want to make sure we protect this information as much as possible, the goal would be to increase the technology, or the human power, the human resources? How do we handle that?

Exchange of information is a transaction of data, but requires technology that is always vulnerable to someone, somewhere.

[Eric Jacksch]

I don't have any insight into the mechanics of the current system. I know records are exchanged. I don't know how the systems are designed. I haven't seen any of the risk assessments or been involved in that. Certainly, from a security perspective, the right approach is to ensure that risk assessments are conducted, and that we pay close attention to the guidance that's provided by our lead agencies.

Again, there are a whole host of cybersecurity threats facing individuals and Canada as a whole. Our goal needs to be to manage those threats, and that starts with designing systems with the appropriate controls right from the beginning.

One of the challenges in cybersecurity is that security is often slapped on like a band-aid after the fact. One of the improvements—and I've certainly seen this with some of the government plans I've worked with—is to consider that early in the process. Consider security in the design process, and build in the level of security we need.

Again, I can't speak to the degree to which that's being done with the current system.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I understand my Conservative colleagues don't have a question. In a matter of extreme collegiality, they're going to give the final three minutes to Mr. Fragiskatos.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I have to say, Mr. Chair, my very able colleagues have already asked the good questions, so I'm left with a general question here that perhaps cuts to the core of the bill, and security and privacy issues in general terms.

Mr. Jacksch, could you outline for us your view on privacy and security and where governments ought to draw that line?

[Eric Jacksch]

Wow, that's a tough one.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

In three minutes....

[Eric Jacksch]

In three minutes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

There is a balance. Particularly when we're dealing with issues of law enforcement and issues of national security, there is a very delicate balance. I feel for legislators because, on one hand, Canadians demand that you protect them, you protect the country, and you ensure that law enforcement and intelligence agencies are able to do their jobs. On the other hand, Canadians demand privacy.

One of the important elements in that balance is the Privacy Commissioner. I wish I could draw a line and say, “Here is security, here is privacy, and here is where we should sit” but it really depends on the situation and it depends on things like the type of information. I'd urge you to go back to those basic privacy principles. Certainly we've Canadianized them, but the principles in our privacy legislation are drawn from European privacy principles, and they're really principles that are commonly agreed on by many countries around the world. I think those are very helpful to look at.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I know and respect the position of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, Ms. McPhail.

You mentioned something about a preamble in your opening remarks. Could you just touch on that again?

[Brenda McPhail]

Yes. In many pieces of recent legislation, there are preambles that specify the general governing principles that should guide the legislation. It's very common to have a preamble that specifically says that the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms should be respected in relation to enforcing the piece of legislation.

It seems that the Customs Act is one of those pieces of legislation currently lacking such a preamble, which would greatly benefit from it. As powers under the Customs Act for search and seizure and questioning increase, it just seems that it would be a worthwhile reminder to say, “Look, all of this has to happen within the framework of our charter and in accordance with the values that we hold as a democratic society”.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I think that's three minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That is three minutes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

The chair is smiling, which usually means yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You had 11 seconds, but that's fine.

On behalf of the committee, I want to thank Mr. Jacksch and Ms. McPhail.

I'm going to suspend until we reconvene the meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Let's bring this meeting back to order.

Our second set of witnesses is from the Department of Citizenship and Immigration.

I am going to call on Mieke Bos, the director general, and ask her to introduce the people she is with.

I've already told our witnesses that this will be a 55-minute session rather than a full hour because the committee has five minutes of business to do.

With that, go ahead, Ms. Bos.

[Mieke Bos, Director General, Admissibility, Department of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Chair, good morning.

Members of the committee, good morning and thank you for inviting me here today to discuss the entry-exit initiative, as Bill C-21 is now in second reading and being studied by this committee.

Thank you for inviting me here today to discuss the entry/exit initiative.

My name is Mieke Bos, and I am the director general for the admissibility branch at Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, IRCC.

The admissibility branch within IRCC provides policy support to the managed migration of visitors to Canada and protects the health, safety, and security of Canadians. We work very closely with the Canada Border Services Agency, CBSA, on a number of files, and entry-exit is just one of them. We liaise on an ongoing basis with the CBSA on migration control and security management, including admissibility, identity management, visas, travel documents, and information sharing.

I am accompanied today by two colleagues: Emmanuelle Deault-Bonin who is the director of Identity Management and Information Sharing, and Marc-Andre Daigle, director of Strategic Initiatives and Global Case Management System Coordination in the Operations section of the department.

As you will have heard earlier in the week from the Minister of Public Safety and colleagues from CBSA, as an entry-exit initiative partner, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada will receive entry-exit data from the CBSA to support its program objectives.

Building on what you heard, I would like to focus on the significance of the entry/exit initiative for Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada (IRCC).

The essence of the entry-exit initiative is about information sharing, verification, and compliance. It is about knowing who enters Canada and who exits Canada at any given moment in time. It's about providing a complete travel history for those applying to be permanent residents or Canadian citizens. It is a system to share information between Canada and the U.S., so that a record of entry into one country becomes a record of exit from the other. The benefits of this initiative are important for my department as the entry-exit system will close a knowledge gap by providing objective information on movements into and out of Canada.

Canada has also committed to collecting exit information about the air mode by requiring airlines to submit a list of all passenger information on outbound international flights.

I cannot stress enough how access to this information will enhance program integrity across multiple lines of business by providing IRCC's officers with a tool to objectively confirm an applicant's presence in, absence from, entry into, or departure from Canada. I would underscore that this is not new. IRCC already collects travel histories from clients applying for citizenship or confirming permanent resident status.

With entry-exit records, however, IRCC officers would be able to verify the accuracy of information submitted by applicants, including their time spent inside and outside of Canada. This information may impact a decision on whether or not an individual qualifies for permanent resident status or being granted citizenship.

IRCC has been working closely with the Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA) to advance this initiative and plans to obtain entry and exit information from the CBSA to support its administration of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, the Citizenship Act and the Canadian Passport Order. The entry and exit information will also assist in case processing and identifying instances of fraud across IRCC's multiple lines of business.

For example, an individual's presence in or absence from Canada is a key requirement in the large volumes of applications and investigations processed annually in the temporary resident, permanent resident, asylum, citizenship, and passport streams. Taking it a step further, access to the CBSA's entry-exit information will provide IRCC decision-makers with an objective travel history to support the processing of an application or investigation. I will give you a few examples.

Accurate, objective entry-exit records will allow IRCC to strengthen the integrity of citizenship and immigration programs by being able to verify that those who claim to have resided in Canada and to have met the residency requirements have actually done so.

It will allow us to better identify temporary residents who overstay their allowable period in Canada. It will allow us to verify that sponsors in the family class are residing in Canada where required by law, and to verify relationships in compliance with conditions for spouses and partners applying or admitted in the family class. It will allow us to ensure ongoing entitlement to a Canadian travel document. It will allow us to support investigations into possible fraud in relation to immigration, citizenship, and passport travel documents, and to detect persons overstaying their visa and immigration warrant closures. It will also allow us to identify individuals who may have failed to meet residency requirements for permanent residency status or citizenship applications.

Moving on to privacy safeguards and concerns, IRCC has a strong privacy track record. As the holders of a vast amount of personal information, we are well versed in the legislative and policy requirements that guide the collection, use, and safeguarding of personal information. The existing privacy frameworks that IRCC has in place for its various business lines continue to apply.

I would echo the Minister of Public Safety's comment earlier in the week that privacy is an important component of the entry-exit initiative. IRCC will be submitting its own privacy impact assessment to the Office of the Privacy Commissioner for entry-exit, and updating its application forms and website to ensure that applicants are aware that the information on their travel history will be obtained from the CBSA to support their application.

IRCC takes its privacy obligations very seriously, and together with the CBSA, and the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada (OPC), we will continue to work to ensure that privacy principles are upheld.

From a functionality perspective, IRCC would only query the CBSA's entry-exit database when processing an application or when conducting an investigation. For instance, IRCC would access entry-exit data when there is a program need, for example, to confirm that an individual has met the residency requirement for a grant of citizenship.

From a client perspective, the benefits of entry-exit information means that IRCC is able to make better informed decisions that impact the lives of those clients. IRCC will use entry-exit information to enhance the processing of legitimate applications and investigations into temporary resident, permanent resident, asylum, citizenship, and passport programs.

For example, entry/exit records would make it easier for IRCC to verify that residence requirements are being met by applicants for eligibility in citizenship and immigration programs. Access to entry/exit information from the CBSA will be used to strengthen current limited travel history information found in passport stamps, which may not always be available or add to processing delays.

Collecting the entry-exit records of Canadian citizens will enhance the integrity of IRCC citizenship, immigration, and travel documents programs. Entry-exit travel records would support provisions under IRPA legislation relating to sponsorship residency and verification of family relationships. Entry-exit information would support investigations concerning the revocation of citizenship and the misuse or abuse of Canadian travel documents such as the Canadian passport.

Members of the committee, as you can tell from my remarks, from an IRCC perspective we very much welcome your consideration of Bill C-21. The information that will become available to us once entry-exit is fully functional is important to the work of my department.

With that, I conclude my opening remarks.

Thank you again for the opportunity to be here with you today.

My colleagues and I will be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Bos.

Mr. Picard, the floor is yours for seven minutes.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Thank you. Your French is improving a lot.