Public Safety Committee on Oct. 31st, 2017

[Anne Kelly]

In prisons we have all sorts of gangs, but in the prairie region I would say it's mostly street gangs. The names are horrible, like Terror Squad.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

One of our challenges is how we fix that part. If the gangs don't exist, there's no place for these people to become reacquainted with them. I'm assuming that those gangs do exist within the prison population.

[Anne Kelly]

Yes, they exist in the community and they exist within our institutions.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

When you talk about the prairie region, where is the largest population of indigenous people? I'm under the impression that there might be more in Ontario than in the prairie region.

[Anne Kelly]

The largest proportion...?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I mean the largest proportion of citizens in the indigenous community. All I'm saying is that I know that Six Nations and the New Credit reserves are highly populated areas, and I think in the London area there are four or five reserves. Certainly there is an issue in the prison population, but do we see a greater percentage in the prairie region? You've referred to the prairie region several times. Is it more highly represented in the prison population?

[Anne Kelly]

Are you talking about gangs?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

No, I mean in the prison population. Are there more offenders from the prairie region?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, Mr. MacKenzie, there's no time to answer that question, but you can possibly work it back in or get a response in writing.

Mr. Picard, you have five minutes.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to make a comment, by way of introduction.

I share Mr. MacKenzie’s view that we have to go and see one of those centres. We did it with Ms. Damoff in Winnipeg and we did not see that one community or another had better conditions. The conditions are much the same, and are certainly not those that most Canadians would like.

With that out of the way, have all the prevention initiative that you put in place well before 2017 received enough support? I am talking about the measures taken to avoid people coming back to prison. Do the Initiatives fill a gap in some places, the result of which is that people end up in prison? Do you have to make up for lost time by taking a greater number of measures?

[Anne Kelly]

Clearly, the initiatives that Ms. Connidis mentioned complement what we are trying to do.

The offenders we deal with have received sentences of two years or more, most of the time for serious crimes. In our institutions, offenders are still well supported. With indigenous offenders, their rates of suspension and revocation are higher, compared to those of non-indigenous offenders.

When indigenous offenders go back to their communities, we have to work with the communities so that the offenders receive the support they need to remain there and so that they do not come back to our institutions.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

In terms of the way of the programs in your institutions are offered, there are particular features because of the unique nature of the indigenous population. Despite the distinct differences between the nature of the programs for the indigenous population and those for the non-indigenous population, are the pathways basically the same? Let me explain.

There are initiatives during incarceration, and thereafter, to stop people coming back to prison. Is what is done for the indigenous population as a whole, with its different cultural emphasis, better by comparison than what is done for the non-indigenous population? However, it seems to me that the follow-up takes more or less the same kind of approach.

[Anne Kelly]

It is similar, except that, in the case of indigenous offenders, of course, the elders take part in delivering the services and the programs. So that is a difference. Moreover, the programs have been developed in collaboration with the elders. So there are more cultural aspects, traditions and ceremonies.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

You raise a very important point about the cultural aspect. It is important to have a fair prison system for the entire population. There is inequity when it comes to the indigenous population, but the approach of the service must be fair to an extent. With such a different approach, do we not run the risk of creating inequity in the eyes of non-aboriginal people? They might wonder why there are different practices for indigenous people that might seem to them to be advantageous or different, or at least more focused. The non-aboriginal population may feel left behind because there is more emphasis on service to the indigenous population.

I have a supplementary. In the delivery of indigenous services, the initiatives that are in place, are there no best practices from which we could draw inspiration, specifically to improve our system on the non-indigenous side as well?

[Anne Kelly]

No. Once again, there are large gaps in outcomes between indigenous and non-indigenous offenders. The law also requires us to address the specific needs of indigenous offenders, which we do. Also, of course, indigenous offenders come to us with their social background, culture and traditions, which institutions respect.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Picard.

Mr. Dubé, you have five minutes.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to come back to this whole security level issue. The first thing is in terms of programs that are available.

I'm wondering if someone could give us a very brief overview of the difference in what may be available, in terms of the different programs, whether you're in a medium or maximum security institution.

[Anne Kelly]

Offenders who are classified maximum security go to a maximum security institution, and there are programs offered there as well.

In terms of our programs, we have what we call the aboriginal integrated correctional program model. It's a multi-target program. Earlier we used to have different programs for different things. Now it's one program that addresses violence, family violence, and substance abuse. What we have with this program is different intensity levels. You either are in a high-intensity program or in a moderate-intensity program.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

Is this regardless of security level?

[Anne Kelly]

Yes.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

I'm wondering if there's been any thought given to.... This is perhaps a broad issue that would require more time than we have, but when I hear you list the factors that are taken into account when you decide whether to have an offender go into a maximum security institution, to me a lot of those issues are going to inevitably create overrepresentation. For example, if we know there are issues already with substance abuse and gang affiliations and things like that, if those factors are being used, then it seems to me that we're just perpetuating....

There's a bit of a chicken-and-egg issue. Some of these issues might be exacerbated because the same people are constantly being put in the same situation again and again.

We are seeing overrepresentation of aboriginal offenders in maximum security prisons. I'm wondering if any thought has been given beyond the safety issues—which I recognize are important, and I don't want to downplay that—on attempting to alleviate some of these other factors that have been brought forward.

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

Part of the response that Anne Kelly gave is that we try to address all of these factors through programming and interventions. We continue to do research on how we can accelerate the progress of these programs and cascade them down to lower security.

Again, much of our assessments are highly individualized, as opposed to being for a member of a particular group. If a particular offender is indigenous and finds himself or herself placed in maximum security for reasons of safety and security as well as risk to the public or risk of escape, we would look towards bringing that classification down through interventions that target a variety of factors that would contribute towards that happening.

Again, it's difficult to generalize to whole groups, but nevertheless, for individuals who do show progress.... We conduct ongoing research on these kinds of things in terms of whether there are other kinds of considerations that we should be looking into in terms of bringing down that classification or mitigating the risk that they would pose in lower security. We do that kind of work.

We do know that what brings them into custody from the beginning are often expressions of violent behaviour. We need to grapple with that upon admission and in placement. We strive to intervene on those factors and mitigate those risks, whether they're a member of a gang or not.

Again, the efforts that are put forward to address and mitigate those risks are extensive in our correctional process.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Motiuk and Mr. Dubé.

That brings us to the end of the first round. We'll be on to the second round. I and the clerk need about 10 minutes at the end to go in camera with you, colleagues, concerning this study, so I propose that the first round be five minutes instead of seven minutes.

With that, Mr. Fragiskatos, you have five minutes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here today and for your work. It's tremendously important to hear from you.

In a given year, how many indigenous offenders participate in programming? It's our first day here, and I think the answer should be on the record.

[Dr. Larry Motiuk]

We can get you those enrolment rates. That's one of the performance metrics that we track for the whole population, as well as for the indigenous population and for women.