Yes.
Evidence of meeting #98 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-59.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #98 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-59.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
Interim Vice-Chairperson and Acting Chairperson, Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
Then if it didn't meet the test, you would like to have the investigation back to continue it to its conclusion.
12:45 p.m.
Interim Vice-Chairperson and Acting Chairperson, Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yes, that is our position. We are saying that in the eventuality that NSIRA were to determine that no, it wasn't and there were dimensions of that which were related to the conduct of an RCMP member, they would send it back.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
I have one last question. Do you have any concerns about privacy or access to information powers that you have right now? What would the commissioners of either of those organizations say with regard to Bill C-59 in your organization? Have you no concerns?
12:45 p.m.
Interim Vice-Chairperson and Acting Chairperson, Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
No.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
I want to come back to one of the questions asked.
When you receive a file involving a national security element, it is provided that you should transfer that file and end the investigation. You have proposed a procedure whereby the new agency would refer the file to you if it determined that no investigation was needed.
Wouldn't it be simpler for you if the file was suspended until a confirmation was given for you to continue the procedure?
That puts an end to the issue of national security, and you know that you can close the file. If the file remained open, you could continue the procedure.
12:45 p.m.
Interim Vice-Chairperson and Acting Chairperson, Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
There would probably be many ways to get the same result. The most straightforward way is definitely in the act and enables the National Security and Intelligence Review Agency to refer the complaint to us if it determined that national security was not involved.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
I like simple documents. But this one is already fairly extensive. It has about 150 pages. I thought that a memorandum of understanding or an internal procedure would help get the same result.
12:45 p.m.
Interim Vice-Chairperson and Acting Chairperson, Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
That is why I was saying that there are probably other ways to get the same results.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
When you investigate a complaint, it's always after the fact. Something happened, but that does not necessarily mean that the operation is finished.
Can you get involved in an investigation even if an operation is ongoing and if, in the case of a national security issue, you once again risk meddling in something very delicate?
12:45 p.m.
Interim Vice-Chairperson and Acting Chairperson, Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
That's a very good question.
Our practice is not to conduct an investigation if we determine that, by doing so, we would harm an investigation or another ongoing activity. We try to respect that consistently.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Michel Picard Liberal Montarville, QC
Do other organizations put pressure on you to slow down certain files?
12:45 p.m.
Interim Vice-Chairperson and Acting Chairperson, Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
No.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
I wish to advise the committee that I will be sharing my time with the aged Mr. Picard.
12:45 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
I only have one question actually.
What will your process be, when this happens, in order to consult with NSIRA for your determination of whether or not a matter or a complaint falls within an investigation or is national security related?
I would be so bold as to suggest that the initial complaint may not be as evident when it first comes in. As you uncover that, will you, and how will you, go about consulting with NSIRA on these matters?
12:45 p.m.
Interim Vice-Chairperson and Acting Chairperson, Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
The modalities of the consultation are something we will have to work out with the new agency. We have an objective in mind, which is to ensure that we respect the intent, both the spirit and the letter of the new law, which says to us, “You are not to do this. You are to send it over.”
We believe that in the majority of cases, we will be able to make the determination quite easily as to whether it is in pith and substance something related to national security. There will be a few instances, and again we go by history—the past being a good indicator of what may occur.... In a few instances, we will want to talk to the people at NSIRA to ensure, not necessarily in dealing in a granular manner with everything that's related to the complaint, but with enough specificity to ensure that....
It would seem to me that our default would be that if NSIRA said in that conversation, “Yes, this is a matter of national security”, we would toss it over to them, which makes the notion of them being able to return it to us, if they thought it wasn't all that more important....
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Having investigated complaints against the police for years, I am curious to know this. You obviously will be able to determine national security issues simply by.... I'm sure in your practice you don't have access to all their databases, you'll have access to individuals who have access to their databases. You'll have a complainant's name. You'll potentially have an RCMP officer's name. You should know within a phone call or two, and they will tell you whether this is a national security issue or not.
Is that fair?
12:50 p.m.
Interim Vice-Chairperson and Acting Chairperson, Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I think that is fair.
