Public Safety Committee on March 1st, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr Dubé.

Mr. Fragiskatos, seven minutes please.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Minister, for being here. Thank you to all the officials as well.

Minister, as you know, about a week and a half ago, there was very serious flooding in southwestern Ontario, in the communities of Brantford and Chatham as well. Both declared a state of emergency. I represent part of London, Ontario, in Parliament. Brantford is just down the road, as is Chatham.

I notice in the estimates that there is funding for the Government Operations Centre. When most Canadians hear something like “Government Operations Centre”, I don't know what they think—perhaps bureaucracy. They think of something just out of their reach and perhaps not intelligible.

Can you tell the committee and Canadians in effect how critical the Government Operations Centre is in situations of national emergency? What exactly it does? How it works with the provinces and municipalities that have declared emergency situations?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

The GOC is a little known agency within the Department of Public Safety, but it's an extremely important one. It's there to provide 24-7, 365 awareness on the part of the Government of Canada of any significant event that may require a response by the Government of Canada.

Its first job is simply to be in touch with everything that is happening across the country and to make sure that, to the maximum extent humanly possible, nothing pops out of the blue as a total surprise, such as “We haven't heard of the flood”. That sort of thing you definitely want to avoid.

The GOC then has the capacity to bring all of the federal family together, every department and agency of the Government of Canada that could be relevant to that situation, and make sure they are ready if they are called upon.

They also have the ability to reach out to provinces, territories, municipalities, the private sector, indigenous organizations, auxiliary groups like the Red Cross, and so forth, so that as a situation develops and perhaps gets more serious, you have all of the relevant players quite literally in the same room.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Therefore, I think it's fair to say that a silo effect is avoided in this situation.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

That is exactly the objective.

In the case of the floods, the situation in Ontario in the last week or so, the Government Operations Centre was very aware of everything that was happening locally on the ground and was communicating with Ontario officials to say they were in touch if anything was needed. If they had to submit a request for assistance from the Government of Canada, if the local situation surpassed their ability to cope with it, the centre was there and would respond instantly.

That didn't happen in that case. It hasn't happened yet. The flood season is just beginning, but we're on standby.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

That was my next question.

I'll move on to asking you about the RCMP. Clearly, the estimates make a number of spending projections. You mentioned this in your opening remarks.

London, Ontario, London North Centre is home to the Ontario headquarters of the RCMP. Can you go into further details about how this money will be used? How it will help the RCMP in the conduct of its operations?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

The RCMP has faced, over the last number of years, a very significant challenge in that the workload on the force has been constantly increasing, while their resource base has been constantly decreasing. Between 2010 and 2015 something very close to $500 million was withdrawn from the base funding of the RCMP. So when you have the workload going up, the budget allocations going down you put the force in a pretty invidious position.

You may remember when the crisis happened on Parliament Hill in the fall of 2014, Commissioner Paulson at that time had to reassign something like 600 officers in the space of just a couple of days. They were pulled off of organized crime investigations, drug investigations, border issues, and so forth, and they were brought to deal with what was then a very urgent national security crisis.

We can't have the force in the position of constantly robbing Peter to pay Paul.

An analysis has been ongoing for the last number of years, involving Treasury Board and the RCMP and the public safety department and external financial consultants and advisors to assess the resources available to the RCMP compared to what they're being asked to do in their mandate, and trying to bring those two things together. The funding in the estimates is to address the first portion of a solution. As I said, there is another item in the budget that will take another step towards that. What's going on here is a full program integrity assessment to make sure we're providing the RCMP with what they need to do the job that Canadians ask them to do.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'm sensing I have limited time so I will say one quick point, but it's a very important one. Zamir Khan and Heather Harder are Londoners. Their child has been negatively impacted by the no-fly list. I know that they, and many other Canadians, look forward to seeing what will happen with respect to the funding that has been allocated and how it will be used. I am hopeful and I am encouraged. I want to thank you for taking this issue extremely seriously, and to your entire department, because I know it's been top of mind for this family and as I say, for so many others across the country.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I think I bumped into them on the Hill on Tuesday—

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I'm sure you did.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Later in the afternoon they seemed to be quite happy. We intend to try to keep it that way.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

Mr. Calkins, five minutes, please.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

I want to follow up with one question after my colleague just to see if I can get an answer. To your knowledge, Minister, given the fact that you're asking for $17 million in the supplementary estimates for major international events security costs, did the RCMP see the guest list prepared by the Prime Minister's office for the event hosted by the Canadian high commissioner on Thursday, February 22?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Mr. Calkins, the item with respect to international events pertains to things like the G-7—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

That's an answer to a question, but it's not answering my question, Mr. Minister.

My question was very specific about events pertaining to February 22.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Again, I will make some inquiries and determine the answer.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Well, I don't know why you can't answer the question here, Minister. You seemed to have an answer in question period for these very basic questions, and it doesn't seem to be satisfactory.

Minister, you're a veteran here at this House, as am I. You're aware that when a minister or the Prime Minister travels to a foreign country, that the global affairs desk in that country would have a guest list for a mission event in which the Prime Minister or a minister would attend. You would be aware of that. Once that list has been compiled by that mission you would know that the vetting process that mission would undertake involves the geographical and security desks involved at Global Affairs Canada, which involves the people from the organizations who are sitting around you at this table.

Do you honestly expect us to believe that the mission staff, in coordination with Global Affairs counterparts, would not have significant information in regard to invited attendees concerning security concerns and matters that might affect the national interests or Canada's reputation globally?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Mr. Calkins, I appreciate your keen interest in this subject matter, but once again, you're asking us to discuss here operational issues that bear upon national security. There is a place and a forum where that can be examined, but it's not in a standing committee of the House.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

With all due respect, my job as a parliamentarian is to hold the government to account, and the Prime Minister is asking me to believe a story that the Government of India is responsible for a security breach in an event that actually happened in his presence. So far we have conflicting stories from a Canadian citizen—who was convicted of attempted murder and has been identified as being with a terrorist organization—who was not only at an event with the Prime Minister but is also seen in photographs with the Prime Minister's wife, in a foreign country in which a serious diplomatic incident has been raised. You expect us to believe the Prime Minister's story that he was advised by someone in your department or in your agency or in the Privy Council Office, who would have significant knowledge about this. He is laying the blame at the foot of the Indian government, something the Indian government refutes at every angle.

Mr. Minister, I'm asking you for some clarity on this. Canadians have a right to know. This affects our country's reputation. This affects our image. This affects our trade. Canadians have every right to know. You've told me that I have another forum through which I can find this information, yet you haven't told me what that forum is. Could you please explain it here to this committee? This committee is tasked with the oversight of the money that you're spending through your department on behalf of taxpayers to make sure that incidents like the one we're talking about don't happen.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I just want to remind all the members that we are studying the estimates. I appreciate that relevance is a loose concept, but nevertheless if we could tie our questions in some manner to the estimates that would be helpful.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Mr. Chair, thank you.

Just in the nature of the way Mr. Calkins phrased himself, you can see, Mr. Chair and Mr. Calkins, how quickly your line of questioning gets to classified information. By my oath of office, I am not permitted to deal in public with classified information. That was a problem in the accountability structures of our parliamentary system, but we took steps with the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians to address that issue, to provide a forum within which issues that involve classified information can in fact be dealt with by members of Parliament instead of just by those who are sworn to the Privy Council.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Mr. Minister, we haven't asked you to actually divulge classified information. We're simply asking if you were advised? Did the RCMP or did CSIS advise the Prime Minister's office or the Privy Council Office on this matter?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

That was the phrasing of your opening question, but your second question then got into an analysis of intelligence interpretations of Canada versus another country. That is classified information and there I cannot go in a standing committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm sorry. We're almost out of time. You still have 10 seconds.

Mr. Spengemann.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you very much, Minister. It's good to have you back with your team.

First of all I want to echo my colleague, Mr. Fragiskatos, and my colleague from the NDP, Mr. Dubé, and thank you for the appropriation for the creation of the database for the passenger protect program, $81.4 million over five years. I wonder if you could take a moment to explain to the committee and to Canadians the logic of this budgetary item in relation to Bill C-59 and address those who say there should either be no no-fly list or it would be faster if not sufficient to have the airlines deal with it.