Evidence of meeting #11 for Public Safety and National Security in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was indigenous.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Unfortunately, we are going to have to leave it there again. It seems to fall to me to interrupt you, Madame Michel, which is not a favourite thing of mine to do.
Mr. Vidal's time is up.
We are now on to Madame Damoff for six minutes, please.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to all of our witnesses for appearing today. I'm not going to have time to ask all of you questions, but I'm going to start with Quebec Native Women.
Indigenous women face unique challenges when it comes to policing. There is a lack of resources. Indigenous women are the fastest-growing prison population in Canada. It's appalling. There is a lack of resources for them. Sometimes police are not necessarily the right ones to be responding to calls. I'm wondering if you could provide the committee, in writing, your recommendations for concrete actions we could take on that.
My specific question is this. Earlier, we had the head of the complaints commission from the RCMP appear. I'm wondering if the indigenous women who you serve file complaints against the RCMP, and if not, why not?
July 24th, 2020 / 2:30 p.m.
President, Quebec Native Women Inc.
That’s a relevant question, thank you.
In terms of the recommendations, we sent you the document I read earlier. In addition, we are going to send you the two briefs we have tabled, that is, the brief we tabled to the National Inquiry on Missing and Murdered Aboriginal Women and the brief we tabled to the Public Inquiry Commission on relations between Indigenous Peoples and certain public services in Quebec. Both briefs are accompanied by recommendations. The failing justice system really is Quebec Native Women’s hobby horse.
Ms. Damoff, as far as the RCMP is concerned, given everything we’re going through, we have a great lack of confidence in the justice system.
As an aboriginal organization, our challenge is to find a way to enable our women to regain confidence in the justice system after all we have been through.
We are going to talk about what happened in 2015 and police brutality in Val-d’Or. Indeed, we are going to talk about the missing and murdered aboriginal women.
2:30 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Madame Michel, I'm sorry to interrupt you. I have limited time.
Do they file complaints, though? If they're not filing complaints, why are they not filing complaints?
2:35 p.m.
President, Quebec Native Women Inc.
They don’t file complaints because they’re afraid. It’s the battle between David and Goliath. They’re dealing with a big machine and a long process to file a complaint.
As an organization, we have just filed a complaint with the Canadian Human Rights Commission regarding the woman in square Cabot and the 17 police officers. As an organization that defends women, we have the right to file a complaint against the police officers who acted in this way, which is unacceptable.
2:35 p.m.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you, Madame Michel.
We heard earlier that there were only 76 complaints that had to do with racism, and I suspect it's because the complaints aren't filed, as opposed to there not being more issues involved.
Mr. Vil, first I want to commend you for your work. Joel Lightbound, the parliamentary secretary for public safety, who couldn't join us today, has spoken very highly of the work you do.
One of the things that concern me is that in Canada it costs $100,000 a year to incarcerate an offender. That doesn't even include the other costs involved in the criminal justice system, policing and the court costs. We've put an awful lot of money into the back end, when someone reaches the criminal justice system, but very little money into the preventative work, like the work that you do in the community.
I'm just wondering if you can speak to the importance of that front-end investment and whether we should be putting more money into proactive programs to divert youth from coming into contact with the criminal justice system, versus spending all of this money once they come into contact with the criminal justice system.
2:35 p.m.
As an Individual
Thank you for your question.
I’m going to talk briefly about part of my work. I founded an organization called “Pour 3 Points.” It trains coaches who work with young people, particularly young people from disadvantaged backgrounds who, in Montreal, are largely racialized youth.
First of all, I think it is indeed relevant to go beyond the justice system to look more broadly at how our public policies translate into programs and invest in our communities to prevent, as you mentioned, young people from coming into contact with the justice system. So it seems obvious to me that we need to invest in community health and education, whether at the provincial or federal level.
However, beyond that, we must ask ourselves how to reallocate funds that are invested in police forces to serve other services. We hear a lot of talk about cutting police funding. This is not an aberration. Indeed, every year, at the municipal, provincial and federal levels, our budgets in education, transportation and all other areas are called into question. Yet they never question the funding allocated to the police. In Montreal alone, if I am not mistaken, the SPVM’s budget has increased significantly and represents $665 million annually, or 11% of the City of Montreal’s budget.
That said, aboriginal women in Montreal are questioned 11 times more often than white women. Ms. Michel can correct me if I’m wrong. So we have to ask ourselves why we are giving public funds to allow the police to intervene. That is where we have to ask ourselves whether we can reallocate these funds to community workers so they can intervene when there is a problem.
Right now, there is a debate about body cameras. In fact, the cameras have shown that they have no effect on the level of violence in interventions. We’re still going to invest money in—
2:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Unfortunately, we're going to have to.... I seem to be having to cut people off, which I really find frustrating. It's the end of Madame Damoff's time. Again, I apologize.
With that, I'm going to ask Madame Michaud for her six minutes, please.
2:35 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I thank all the witnesses for their testimony.
I’m going to address Mr. Vil, whom I want to congratulate for the work he is doing with “Pour 3 Points” and in Briser le code, which was directed by Nicolas Houde-Sauvé. I think there’s a lot of work being done in the community right now, at least in Quebec.
So I’m going to give you the opportunity to finish what you were saying, Mr. Vil. In fact, you’re talking about racism in a way that differs from what we’ve been hearing since the beginning of our proceedings. You’re talking about a multifactorial crisis for which we are all responsible, which I think is important.
In fact, a lot of it comes back to the fact that more training needs to be done with police officers, or at least better training.
In your opinion, how should the issue of racism be addressed in police training?
2:40 p.m.
As an Individual
First of all, thank you for your kind words and for giving me the opportunity to add to what I was saying.
In fact, we are adding solutions that require larger budgets, when they are not effective. To answer the question I was asked, reinvestment in community workers, in the fight against drug addiction and in urban planning will, in my opinion, make it possible to do prevention.
Now, there’s a lot of talk now about training on unconscious bias, among other things. This training is, to some extent, relevant, but, given the repressive impact of the police, I think we need to go a little further, as Ms. Michel was saying. We cannot rely solely on training. So I will not get involved as a police training expert. However, in the United Kingdom, for example, police officers who conduct street checks do not carry weapons. Could we explore this possibility in Canada and reserve weapons for emergency response units, which, where warranted, will carry a weapon? That would have prevented the deaths of people like Nicholas Gibbs, Pierre Coriolan or Alain Magloire, who were killed at close range with a rifle or other weapons, such as clubs.
Disarming the police in this context seems important to me. I have already had a conversation with a police officer about this. He told me that we need to understand the stress a police officer feels when he is holding a gun and feels threatened. Well, if he’s too stressed, let’s take his gun away from him. I think we have to consider that elsewhere in the world, people have found other ways of interacting, and that’s where I think we need to go beyond training. How could the funding allocated to the police be allocated to other types of interventions? That’s where I think we really have something important to do.
2:40 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
What you’re saying is very interesting. You are the first to mention this since the beginning of our study. Thank you.
I know you’re doing a job—
2:40 p.m.
As an Individual
I’m sorry to interrupt you.
I’ll mention one thing. All I’m doing right now is raising the issue with you. I hope other people will. Many people advocate for reduced police funding. Sometimes, these people are perceived as not being sufficiently credible to testify before you, even though the substance of what they’re saying is essential.
I’ll stop here.
2:40 p.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you.
You are doing important work, especially with young people. I will try to pass it on even more via social media, because I can then reach out to another generation. I think that's important.
In specific terms, what would you say to a young white male, in a privileged situation, let's say, seeking to join the police force and who might end up finding himself in a position of power or authority where he could abuse it?
2:40 p.m.
As an Individual
Your question deals with the extent of systemic racism, which goes beyond the police forces. It is not for me today to tell white children who want to become police officers what to do. It is up to elementary and secondary school educators to teach young people what racism is, to tell them about Canada's colonial history, and to ensure that the concept of racism becomes an issue taught in our communities. It is also up to our institutions to ensure that our media stop broadcasting information that conveys racist prejudices. If I had to pass a message on to white children today, I would have nothing to say to them.
My message is for their parents, who are people in positions of power, and to people like you, for example, judges, teachers and hospital staff. What are those people doing to ensure that systems are created and public policies are put in place to make sure that discrimination stops?
Today, Ms. Michel said that the Indian Act is fundamentally racist. How many times does she have to say that? This is not the first time she has said it. When are you, yes, you, going to repeal this act?
Children are the result of what you, collectively, are giving them. The question remains: with what power will we confront racism issues?
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Okay, I'm going to have to intervene once again.
I'm sorry, Madame Michaud, but your time is up.
With that, we have Mr. Harris for six minutes, please.
2:45 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
Thank you, Chair.
My first question is for Madame Michel.
You mentioned in your response to a question the situation in Val-d'Or that led to the CERP inquiry. In a letter to Minister Marc Miller in June, this is referenced and talked about, abuses in Val-d'Or, including by police officers, including sexual abuses, intimidation, excessive force and something called “starlight tours”.
I've heard that expression used before in western Canada in relation to police officers bringing an inebriated indigenous person outside of the town and leaving them, regardless of the weather. Is that referring to the same thing or is that something else? I had not heard of it happening outside of this particular situation in Saskatoon.
2:45 p.m.
President, Quebec Native Women Inc.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I will be pleased to comment on that.
In 2015, Anishinabe women, that is to say Algonquin women in the Val-d'Or region, made some major allegations. They spoke out against police brutality, which includes sexual assault, physical force and the “starlight tour,” as you called it.
The “geographical cure,” as we call it, is the arrest of indigenous women who are intoxicated. They take them miles away in the middle of winter and let them walk back. That is the “geographical cure.” They do it just like that, perhaps for fun. I don't know.
So those women spoke out in 2015. Thirty-seven cases were opened. However, following our request for investigations, out of those 37 cases entrusted to the independent investigations office (BEI), only two were pursued.
Those two files involved an indigenous police officer who worked in the far north and a non-indigneous police officer who has now committed suicide. However, there was no investigation into the other police officers, who were from the Sûreté du Québec. That means that no case was ever investigated.
Is that right? I am asking the question.
On May 3, in Montreal, a woman in psychological distress cried out for help. There was a long negotiation with an indigenous street worker, and she finally agreed to call 911 to ask for an ambulance. Instead of an ambulance, 17 police officers arrived with the canine unit.
Are those not concrete examples of systemic discrimination and racism? I believe they are.
We also talk about racial profiling, because when you call 911, you have to describe who is asking for help. In this case, with an intoxicated indigenous woman who was in psychological distress, the police came.
2:45 p.m.
NDP
Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL
Thank you. I appreciate that. I read about the issue regarding the 17 police officers showing up in Montreal as well, and I note that you're unhappy with the results of the CERP study.
Can I ask you and perhaps Professor Lashley to answer this? One of the recommendations, the calls for justice, of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls talks about the establishment of indigenous civilian organizations to provide oversight on policing across jurisdictions.
Can you tell us how you would see that happening, Madame Michel, and perhaps Professor Lashley, if there's time? How would that oversight take place, and in what practical way?
2:50 p.m.
President, Quebec Native Women Inc.
Clearly, when a call is made for psychological distress, the police should not respond. Social services, social workers should have been the ones helping that woman. Why call the police? It was not an assault.
Action must also be taken with regard to the police, given everything that has been reported. The so-called disciplinary measures are not being applied to the police. Actually, the state, that is the government, does not want to get involved in union wars. It is better to close the file fairly quickly because it does not want to start negotiations.
Let's ask ourselves the question. Will brutal police intervention have to be tolerated for longer still?
There are specific values in policing, such as providing security, keeping the peace and protecting citizens in general, which includes all people from all different backgrounds.
For their part, police officers should work on their professional ethics and their code of conduct, which should be more strictly enforced, especially if there are abuses involving brutality. To that end, disciplinary measures should be applied, which is not the case today. The door is therefore left open for those people to exercise their power.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Unfortunately, that runs out Mr. Harris's six minutes. I'm rather hoping that Professor Lashley will be able to weave an answer in at some other point.
With that, we're going to our three-minute round. Mr. Uppal, you have three minutes, please.
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
Tim Uppal Conservative Edmonton Mill Woods, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, witnesses, for your testimony and for adding to our study.
I'll start with Dr. Lashley.
Do you feel that there is enough collaboration between the federal and provincial governments on mental health support?
2:50 p.m.
As an Individual
Thank you very much for the question.
I think it could be better, but I am encouraged that both levels of government are starting to recognize the importance of mental health.
Where I have difficulty is that I don't think the mental health difficulties experienced by people who are undergoing the trauma of racism are clearly understood. Racism is bad for your health. It's bad for your health because people end up with hypertension, coronary vascular disease and tremendous mental health difficulties. The pressure of having to constantly maintain the facade of being okay in order to function within a society where the system—not the people, but the system—is built to be against people of colour is very wearying. Frantz Fanon refers to it as wearing a mask just to get through the day. I don't think that's clearly understood.
Yes, on the surface, there is co-operation, possibly not much as there should be, but people need to understand what the importance of racism is and what it does to the psyche and the physical well-being of the individual.
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
Tim Uppal Conservative Edmonton Mill Woods, AB
Thank you.
We hear a lot when the incidents happen, and you hear it on the news, but what is the prevalence of suicides in the cases of police interventions? Have you looked into that?
2:50 p.m.
As an Individual
No, I haven't. I've looked at other aspects of police interventions and police-citizen relationship, but I haven't looked at the incidence of suicide.
What I can tell you is that high anxiety levels and no way to cope with them, as well as things like fear and depression, which is one of the outgrowths of racism, can result in suicidal ideation and suicidal events. However, I do not know and cannot answer your question directly. I do not have the answer.
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
Tim Uppal Conservative Edmonton Mill Woods, AB
Another part of.... On the collection of data on racial discrimination in the police, is there a challenge in gathering data from all these separate police departments working separately? What can we do to address this?