Evidence of meeting #12 for Public Safety and National Security in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was systemic.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nishan Duraiappah  Chief, Peel Regional Police
Bryan Larkin  Chief of Police, Waterloo Regional Police Service and member of the Drug Advisory Committee, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police
Julian Falconer  As an Individual
Lorraine Whitman  President, Native Women's Association of Canada

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Shipley.

Mr. Anandasangaree, you have three minutes, please.

1:50 p.m.

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the panel.

Mr. Falconer, I just want to put on the record the admiration I have for you and the work you've done over the years. It was a pleasure to work with you on issues around safe schools, I think around 15 years ago.

This question is really to both of you. A number of different commissions of inquiries and a number of different incident responses have taken place over the last three decades. Can you maybe outline specific recommendations relating to accountability that we can put within the police service? I'm talking about a civilian oversight body and what elements would be important to put into a civilian oversight body.

1:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Julian Falconer

If it's okay with Ms. Whitman, I can go first.

1:55 p.m.

President, Native Women's Association of Canada

1:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Julian Falconer

Thank you.

I've seen this committee's work specifically on the issues surrounding recommendations that have ended up in Bill C-3 concerning the civilian review and complaints commission. What I am left wondering, after 30 years of doing this work in policing specifically, is this: What is the fear of creating independent civilian oversight over the RCMP? I mean, for God's sake, respectfully, why is everybody pussyfooting around this issue?

You talk about adding some teeth to the work of the CRCC. That's fine. Obviously, Madam Lahaie is the real deal as she tries to call them out—all she has is a recommendation function—but isn't the obvious going on here? You create an independent oversight body, a board, that runs the RCMP. The same should be done with the OPP. That's my first point. Then you make sure it's an effective oversight body. That doesn't exist. Honestly, the RCMP remains quite unbridled and quite a law unto themselves. That's what Ms. Lahaie, the chair, has just recently announced. She cannot get them to follow her recommendations, and the reason is that she doesn't run them. She makes recommendations.

My second issue that I want to emphasize is that the role of indigenous police services in this country needs to be legislated and enhanced. Respectfully, Ms. Whitman shouldn't have to answer why and how the RCMP can adapt and change. Why don't all first nations communities have the option of having indigenous policing? You look at NAPS. You look at Wikwemikong Tribal Police Service. You look at the Treaty Three Police Service. You look at the other police services in Ontario that are indigenous. They make huge headway. I think it's an important step in the right direction.

1:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you.

Mr. Morrison, you have three minutes, please.

1:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Morrison Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Whitman, in looking at best practices, we're looking at different policing models and what's working and what isn't working. Have you seen some best practices that we should be employing nationally? As well, should local communities be more involved in the hiring of police recruits?

1:55 p.m.

President, Native Women's Association of Canada

Lorraine Whitman

First of all, one best practice is the inclusion of the communities, of the groups of people who are there. Also, I'm looking at the incident with Ms. Chantel Moore, what happened with the wellness check. When we're dealing with some of our indigenous people, we know the background. There should be a database in those communities, and understanding of elders, knowledge-keepers, who would know these people. We're all interrelated, no matter what province, territory or community we're from. We have that heart, and we know there's someone they could have called on to help de-escalate what had happened with Chantel Moore. I do think a database would be able to come in play, with the elders and knowledge-keepers of the local area, or a way that they would be able to call and ask for some help.

When you're in a situation, if you have a mental illness and you have a terrible background, and you have someone in a uniform banging at your door, of course it's going to escalate. How could it not? Why would anyone in their right mind go in by themselves, without someone else there who would be able to de-escalate?

I realize that there may be other areas and concerns, but one needs to look at the other areas that would benefit people as well as the officers involved. It's a two-way mirror. We need to work together and put our heads together. I really, truly believe if we do that, it would be a better society for both indigenous and non-indigenous people.

1:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Morrison Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

You have great questions. You did touch on that earlier in your response to the police officers being involved in community events. Certainly, unfortunately, that isn't happening across Canada. That is a critical part of being part of a community, not just responding to, for example, violent calls, but actually being there as a friend and not as somebody who's arresting someone. It's critical.

I only have about a minute left. I wonder, Mr. Falconer, if you can just add on to—

2 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

No, you haven't. You have about 15 seconds left.

2 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Morrison Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Okay, just add on to a best practice that you would see employed across Canada.

2 p.m.

As an Individual

Julian Falconer

The best practice that I would emphasize is the need to cease the emphasis on being an occupying force and reinforce the community perspective. Police services need to align their values with those of community, not the opposite. You see that in indigenous policing. You need to set up indigenous police services for success. The rest will happen. It will follow.

2 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you.

With that, we'll go to our final round, some combination of Madame Khera and Mr. Sikand. I would like to give a minute to Madame Michaud and Mr. Harris, particularly the last question for Mr. Harris, since I, unfortunately, cut off Mr. Falconer.

These are your last three minutes, and then one minute to Madame Michaud and then one minute to Mr. Harris.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Kamal Khera Liberal Brampton West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Perhaps I'll start with Mr. Falconer. Thank you for being here and for your testimony.

We've recently seen calls to defund the police. You've alluded to this earlier in your remarks and perhaps in one of the questions. With the understanding that it does not equate to cancelling the police but reviewing their funding and how it's being used while also ensuring they're investing in mental health services, social services in communities, what is your recommendation on this narrative?

2 p.m.

As an Individual

Julian Falconer

This is precisely where you could involve the creation of true civilian oversight, so that it's not the police making this decision. It is a paramilitary organization that is going to go in a paramilitary direction. On the Paquet death in Toronto, Chief Saunders specifically said that he was not going to send in the mobile crisis team when the situation was tricky. In fact, it's the opposite. We need them to do that. You need civilian oversight to force these issues. Don't leave this up to the police. They're not going to change on their own.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Kamal Khera Liberal Brampton West, ON

Mr. Falconer, we're talking about racism in policing. I also note that in your career you've touched upon systemic racism elsewhere, namely, co-authoring a report on its impact in the legal system. You made about 13 recommendations. What are some of those? If you want to touch on some of those for this committee, that would be great. Thank you.

2 p.m.

As an Individual

Julian Falconer

I'm honoured, Ms. Khera, that you raised this.

You'll notice that in my remarks, I comment that we're still challenged at the Law Society of Ontario. We still have benchers who, literally, deny the existence of systemic racism in the profession.

What I would say is that, in the end, those who are in the business of denying reality will be left behind. The response following the Floyd death is proof positive that the majority of communities want to see real change.

What I suggest is that you take the power and privilege that you, as a committee, have and you force the auditors general, federally and provincially, to start enforcing these reports. It's all there. I don't mean, Ms. Khera, to get off topic, but you could make that change. You could make the change requiring the mobile crisis teams by the RCMP to be real and effective. You can make those changes. There are examples of concrete steps you could take.

Finally, I do want to point out something in regard to Mr. Harris's question about a university or a school not investing in conventional policing. Maybe they should look at aboriginal police services. Maybe what they're not finding for their students in one place, they'll find in another.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Kamal Khera Liberal Brampton West, ON

Thank you.

2 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

You have about a minute.

2 p.m.

Liberal

Kamal Khera Liberal Brampton West, ON

Do any of my colleagues want to ask any of the witnesses a question?

2 p.m.

Liberal

Gagan Sikand Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

I'll jump in there.

Mr. Falconer, you were discussing how you envisioned indigenous communities policing themselves. We already see that they have self-government. Perhaps you could speak to that component, which you started off on, please.

2:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Julian Falconer

In Ontario, in particular, right now.... I had the honour of being part of a team that, on behalf of the Nishnawbe Aski Nation, negotiated with the provincial government over 100 amendments to the Police Services Act—they haven't been proclaimed enforced, but they've been passed by the Ford government—creating legislated police standards for indigenous police services, an option to opt in to legislation.

The reason I raise this is that within these legislated standards is everything from appropriate crime units to emphasis on creating resources that are inclusive in nature. The community values mandate—

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

Gagan Sikand Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Just because we're short on time, I want to emphasize.... You mentioned an opt-in mechanism.

2:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Julian Falconer

Yes, that's right.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Answer very briefly.

You're not short on time; you're over time.