Public Safety Committee on Feb. 27th, 2020

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I think we both very sincerely agree that this is a terrible tragedy and should not have occurred. I think a number of different responsibilities are important to acknowledge and recognize.

First of all, a criminal investigation is the responsibility of the police of jurisdiction. In Quebec, that is the police in Quebec. I understand that individual is being charged.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I am not talking about the police. I am talking about an internal investigation into correctional services, the Parole Board of Canada.

We want to know what happened. The government commissioned an internal investigation, but the correctional officer made a point of saying—he is the one who raised the issue—that there needed to be an external investigation conducted by a retired judge.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

The time has expired, but there is going to be an opportunity for this committee to explore those questions. In the week we're back, we are set up to do that.

I apologize, Ms. Khera, for missing the order, but you have five minutes, please. Thank you.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you, Chair. It's okay.

Minister Blair, welcome to the committee. Thank you for being here and for all that you do in keeping our communities safe.

Minister, I know that as a GTA member of Parliament and a former Toronto police police chief, you are very familiar with the region of Peel. In their 2018 annual report, Peel police stated that gun violence has been a major problem for the region. In 2018, the police seized 459 firearms and investigated 504 potential shootings, an increase of 18% over 2017.

Minister, as the member of Parliament for Brampton West, I've personally met families and have read stories of the tragic end path of gun and gang violence in our communities. I know there's no one simple solution. We need a comprehensive and holistic approach, and I know our government has made significant investments to combat gun and gang violence specifically in the GTA.

Can you elaborate on those investments and the impact in our communities? This is for the sake of my constituents who constantly ask me how the federal investments that we make flow into our municipalities, into our regions and into our communities like Brampton.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I'll try to be very quick, Mr. Chair.

First of all, in 2017, we committed $327 million to provide funding to police services right across the country. That includes the RCMP, CBSA, and also municipal and indigenous police services across the country. Of that, $214 million was specifically allocated to municipalities. I can speak to the federal dollars, and that might be even more appropriate, Mr. Chair, because we did make investments in the RCMP to increase their capacity to conduct investigations in their jurisdictions of responsibility, because organized crime investigations into the gangs responsible for smuggling, stealing or diverting these guns are an important part of their work.

Under the agreement, we have tried to work with the provinces across the country to provide that funding. We do that by providing, for example, $65 million to the Province of Ontario. It is then Ontario's responsibility to determine how best to allocate that within their jurisdiction. As we know, there were some difficulties in getting that flowing efficiently. The money was made available to the province, but getting it out....

I was very pleased to meet with the Ontario ministers in Brampton in front of the Peel Regional Police headquarters in your area, where we announced the additional $54 million that they agreed to accept. They announced at that time 17 different projects they're investing in. That money is now beginning to flow.

It's important to support the police, but it's important to do more. We've listened very carefully to communities, and we have in our platform.... I don't want to get ahead of the budget, but it is our intention to make significant new investments in communities and in kids, because we've also heard that it's not just an issue of policing, but you have to address the social conditions that give rise to this violence.

We'll be making significant investments, and we intend to work more closely and directly with communities and municipalities to make this money flow, not just more quickly but more effectively, to get it where it will have the best account. I also think we have a responsibility to produce good public value for these investments for Canadians, and we need to be able to demonstrate the return on that investment. The best way to do that is to deal more directly with the organizations responsible for making those investments.

Of course, that's not all we're doing. We've also heard the importance of interdicting the supply of guns that are coming into our community, so we'll be making efforts to strengthen gun control laws to keep guns from being stolen by requiring stricter storage measures to keep them from being diverted and by providing the police with authorities and resources to detect and therefore prosecute such offences. Also, we've made, and continue to make, very significant investments at the border in CBSA officials and also in technologies and in our investigations to deal with those organizations and individuals responsible for smuggling guns into the country.

We are doing work to interdict the supply of guns, but also doing work to reduce the demand for guns. All of those investments are important and necessary.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Minister, my second question is about cybersecurity. We know that more Canadians are relying on information technology, which has made us more connected than ever before, but that also poses the question of vulnerabilities for hackers to exploit. We know that cybercrime has grown by more than 100% between 2014 and 2018, according to StatsCan.

In Brampton, my colleagues and I worked very closely with Ryerson University to fund the Cybersecure Catalyst, which is a national centre for cybersecurity in Brampton.

Minister, can you tell me exactly how our government is fighting cybercrime and keeping Canadians safe? Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have 10 seconds.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

We're investing $201 million to bolster Canada's ability to fight cybercrime. We're creating an RCMP national cybercrime coordination unit. Perhaps in the next session the commissioner will be able to provide you with more details.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Ms. Khera.

Madame Michaud, the final two and a half minutes go to you.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like us to talk about the Parole Board of Canada.

As you know, according to a poll conducted in 2019 by the board itself, 70% of its parole officers said they were unable to do their job well and therefore protect the public, when that is the mandate of Public Safety Canada.

What has been done to rectify the situation? Has more money been injected? We see that the projected spending between 2020 and 2022 is less than the money allocated in 2019-20.

Is that realistic?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you for that.

I would make one statement, and then I'll turn it over to Ms. Oades if she wants to add any additional things.

First of all, the parole system is very important. We know that the outcomes for offenders who are released under supervision as a result of the work done by the Parole Board actually produce much bigger outcomes, as opposed to individuals who are released at end of sentence, who have not had the benefit of the thoughtful interventions of the Parole Board and the support that is provided to individuals through the Parole Board and corrections offices. We recognize the importance of that work and making sure that it's adequately resourced.

Perhaps I will turn to the chair, Ms. Oades.

[Jennifer Oades, Chairperson, Parole Board of Canada]

Yes. Thank you.

I'm not sure if you're confusing the Parole Board with parole officers and the investment in the community, because I'm not aware of—

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I am talking about the poll conducted of the officers who indicated they were unable to do their job properly. I don't know if that is linked to cuts made in the past.

[Jennifer Oades]

Yes. I'll be clear that the Parole Board is a decision-making body. We don't supervise parole officers. The parole officers come under the supervision of the Correctional Service of Canada.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Those parole officers are under the responsibility of Commissioner Kelly.

Commissioner, briefly, would you like to make an intervention?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Sorry. I'm sure you'll be able to work a response into that question at some point.

That brings us to the end of our time with the minister. I'm going to suspend for a minute or two while the minister and his staff leave. Then we will continue with the officials.

With that, we're suspended. Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I realize that I started to throw the cat in with the pigeons earlier today. I make no apology for that because at the end of this session it was my intention to ask members to vote on the supplementary estimates (B).

Based upon the information that is in the public realm, and even with the minister's tangential explanation on some elements, there won't be a member at this table who will actually be able to explain his or her vote.

I want guidance from members as to whether they would appreciate, on a vote-by-vote basis, an explanation of the difference between what's in the table of expenditures and the actual vote that's being requested. Would that be helpful? Is that useful, or do we simply proceed in the normal fashion and start with questions?

Jack.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Chair, I am supportive of your concerns about the information available to us. We have a lot of people here and we have a job that seems almost impossible, frankly, to deal with in an hour with these questions that are essentially unanswered. If we're going to do that, we're not going to have an opportunity to ask further questions.

I, for one, am not prepared to vote on this at the end of this meeting, based on the lack of information. If we have an opportunity to ask questions, we'll do that. If the information is inadequate, then I think those responsible for presenting this information ought to do a better job, and we'll come back and vote on it another time. I'm not prepared to vote “yea” or “nay” on these estimates today, as a result of the lack of information.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You realize that they'll be deemed voted on anyway. Having said that, this will keep coming up. There will be supplementary estimates (C) after this. Then there will be main estimates. Then we'll go back to (A), (B) and (C) again. I take the view that the reconciliation of the two numbers is important, so that we all know what we're voting on.

With that, is it the will of the committee to proceed in the normal fashion?

I'd call upon Mr. Paul-Hus. Just let me get a sense of the—

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Chair, I missed the first part of your question. You want us to vote immediately? What is the question?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

No. From the officials, insofar as they are able to do so, I want a reconciliation between the vote number and the table of expenditures number.

I know you've spent hours looking at this, Mr. Paul-Hus, but the table of expenditures number, for instance, on the Canada Border Services Agency is $3.4 million. The vote number, however, is $971 million. There is an explanation. Do you want that explanation?

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

In part, yes. However, there are technical questions on the budgets for operations.

The minister talked about $500,000 for the CBSA, but on the other hand, there is an increase of $500 million and more. If the witnesses could speak to that, that would be good, because the minister had no idea what he was talking about.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Is there any other commentary?

Mr. Dalton.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

My first question is for the RCMP commissioner. We're facing a real crisis here with the blockades. There's a great impact on our economy. Thousands of people are again laid off. I talked to somebody yesterday who had been laid off in my own community of Maple Ridge. They had to lay off a number of people. Commuters are being impacted. I wonder if you could comment on a police force that seems to be unable, or unwilling, to apply the rule of law across Canada.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Thank you for that question.

In our jurisdiction, we are applying the law. We had an injunction in mid-February for the Morice forestry service road in the Wet'suwet'en territory. We had discussions and eventually we enforced the injunction. For us, the discussions are not about whether we are going to enforce an injunction, but about how and when we're going to enforce it so that we can get the most peaceful outcome. That's exactly what happened. We were very patient. It took several days, and we cleared the forestry road as per the Supreme Court injunction in B.C.