Evidence of meeting #7 for Public Safety and National Security in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communities.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Brenda Lucki  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Gail Johnson  Chief Human Resources Officer, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

6 p.m.

Bloc

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There are a number of reasons why some communities are discriminated against.

On the website of the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the RCMP, we can see that the complaint form is available in 16 languages. The language barrier is certainly a form of discrimination. Only 13 of the 16 languages are Indigenous languages. Why is the complaint form not available in all Indigenous languages? How can an Indigenous person who is a victim of abuse or discrimination file a complaint if they cannot even access the form in their own language?

6 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

We spoke earlier about the importance of the accessibility of a complaints resolution system. Every Canadian has to have the ability to bring forward a complaint without the help of a lawyer and in a language that makes it accessible to them.

The RCMP, I know, has worked hard, as has the CRCC, to make that as accessible as possible. You mentioned translating it into a number of indigenous languages. There's more work to be done, and that will be part of the work we have in front of us.

6 p.m.

Bloc

Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC

Minister, the Annual Report 2018-2019 of the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the RCMP reported a 13% increase over the previous year. The majority of complaints dealt with improper arrest, neglect of duty, improper attitude, mishandling of property, or improper use of force.

You speak of measures that have been in place for a number of years, such as cultural diversity training. That being the case, how do you explain the increase in the number of complaints?

6 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

It's always possible to look at the number of complaints and an increase in the number of complaints as indicative of a growing problem. It also, I hope, indicates a growing awareness and trust in the complaints resolution system.

A greater concern to me would be no complaints at all, because we know that interactions between the police and the public do not always go perfectly and that people may be quite unsatisfied with the service or the outcome. So, making sure that a complaint system is available and accessible to Canadians, and that it provides them with a timely resolution of their complaint is the right thing to do for the public and for the police officer.

Of course, I know the commissioner tracks very carefully when there is a pattern of increasing complaints of a certain nature and that it is quickly responded to and evaluated with respect to their training, their policies and their systems of accountability.

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Madam Michaud.

Mr. Angus and Mr. Blair, you have two and a half minutes for two talkers.

6 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

One concern, when we are talking about taking seriously the issue of systemic racism in Canada, is that the federal government has always had a policy of not collecting race-based data because it says we're not a racist state and everybody's the same.

We know, since we're having this meeting, that everybody's not treated the same. The incidence of violence against indigenous people is much higher and the incidence of targeting racialized and black communities is much higher. Would you make a simple recommendation to say that the RCMP needs to collect race-based data so we actually can start getting better pictures of how the force is being used?

6 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

Yes, sir. I will tell you that, again in my experience—about 30 years ago now—the police used race-based data inappropriately. It had the very negative effect of stigmatizing people, Canadians, and was therefore prohibited in Toronto for a number of years.

6 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Just to jump in here—I have only a bit of time—how do we do it? How do we balance it so that what we're gathering is actually about accountability and not targeting?

6 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

I think it's the collection and the availability of race-based data. We need that information so that we can make decisions on where we need to make investments in communities, investments in kids and changes in the criminal justice system.

That data is invaluable and necessary, but I always place a caution on it. We also need to be careful that it's not misused for a purpose that we do not intend. With regard to information, I very strongly support the collection of disaggregated race-based data to help inform the important decisions we have to make in order to support those communities and help those kids.

6:05 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Commissioner.

6:05 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Yes, as the minister said, before when we took that data—it was to be bias-free—they said you couldn't collect that data. Now we're looking at it and saying that to be more effective and to bring on the change that's needed to combat the racism, we may have to look at starting to collect that data so that we can define the racial disparities, how they exist and how to address it. My commitment is to work with the Privacy Commissioner on that.

6:05 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

You will work with the Privacy Commissioner?

6:05 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Yes. Absolutely.

6:05 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Okay. Thank you.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I want to thank the minister for his attendance here.

I will suspend the meeting for 30 seconds only, because I think the minister can exit the room without any assistance whatsoever.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Blair Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

We will resume this committee meeting.

As we can see on our monitors, there is a third person who is present virtually.

I want to thank you, Commissioner, for being here. With or without the permission of the committee, I'm going to run a little bit late, only because it took some time to do some transferring. I think it's important. Everybody has made a lot of effort to be here, and I know they want to direct a lot of questions to you.

With that, Commissioner, I would ask you to give your opening statement and introduce the people who are with you.

Thank you.

6:10 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With me is Dennis Daley, assistant commissioner with contract and indigenous policing. On the screen is Gail Johnson, our fairly new—eight months, probably—chief human resources officer.

Good evening.

Thank you for the invitation to speak on these critical issues.

I would like to acknowledge that I am speaking on unceded Algonquin territory.

The last several weeks have been extremely difficult for Canadians, for indigenous, black and racialized communities, as well as for police. This has sparked an important conversation across the country. I have been listening. The calls for action have been heard. My opening remarks will outline RCMP modernization efforts in the wake of these recent events.

When I was appointed commissioner two years ago, I said, “I plan to challenge assumptions, seek explanations and better understand the reasons how we operate. This means that no stone will be left unturned.”

The past two weeks have given the RCMP an unprecedented opportunity to advance change and step up our actions.

We have strengthened our resolve to advance change and step up our actions to serve, protect and reflect all communities; achieve reconciliation with indigenous and racialized communities; and bolster relationships built on recognition of rights, respect, mutual trust, co-operation and partnership. We are not a perfect organization but we will continue to learn, grow and evolve.

As I expressed directly to my members in a video message several days ago, it's painful to hear; nevertheless, a constructive dialogue is important if we are to strengthen the trust of Canadians. There's also a deep pain in Canada's indigenous, black and racialized communities, including those in the RCMP, who have suffered the inequities of systemic racism. I would like to affirm here, before Parliament, that I am so very proud to lead the 30,000 employees of the RCMP who continue to have my deep appreciation for what they do every single day, serving Canadians with dedication and professionalism. They do this out of an intense sense of fairness and a desire to protect the vulnerable in every corner of Canada and around the world.

Let me say that we are committed to seeking out and eliminating all forms of racism and discrimination in our organization. I have listened to RCMP employees and their families who are demoralized by the anti-police narrative that is painting everyone unfairly with the same brush, but acknowledging that systemic racism is present in the force does not equate to employees being racist. It is about how an organization creates and maintains racial inequality, often caused by sometimes subtle and unintentional biases in police policies, practices and process that either privilege or disadvantage different groups of people.

I have heard from and reached out to many people, listening, learning and reflecting on how these discussions translate into strengthening my organization. I have spoken with indigenous leaders, including Senator Murray Sinclair, who spoke to me about taking a closer look at our recruitment and our training. I also spoke to MMIWG Commissioner Marion Buller, who spoke to me about our ongoing commitment to work with and learn from communities, which will help us make real progress. I listened to indigenous employees, both current and retired, who reminded me of the importance of our roots in community policing and the importance of our connection to the people we serve.

Now the RCMP can strengthen this trust and counter systemic racism.

I want to talk to you about what we have done to date.

I was given a clear mandate to modernize and transform our culture. In just over two years, we have made significant progress. I have received input both internally and externally from my national council of diversity and inclusion, my indigenous advisory committee and community leaders, particularly those in black and indigenous communities. I have established a new indigenous lived experience advisory group, comprised of current and former indigenous RCMP employees.

We are putting a diversity and inclusion lens on our policies, programs, recruiting, training and practices to better understand some of the unintended barriers that exist, and to work to correct them.

Character-based leadership is being integrated into our recruitment, our training and our promotion process. We have added more learning about indigenous history for cadets and incorporated indigenous traditions into our RCMP traditions in a number of ways, including supporting indigenous employees' wearing of traditional items like the eagle feather and the Métis sash when donning our red serge. We have updated national programs, including strengthened cultural awareness training and training in unconscious bias and trauma-informed approaches. We have enhanced the RCMP's participation in restorative justice initiatives across the country.

In terms of doing more to address systemic racism going forward, we are reprioritizing and enhancing our action plan to make changes at all levels, from recruitment to training to reporting and accountability. We really need to double down on hiring a more diverse membership, as we would like greater diversity to reflect the communities we serve. We are working to ensure that no unintended bias exists in our recruiting or training that could inadvertently and inappropriately impact some segments of our society.

We are revisiting our relocation practices and looking at place-based recruitment so that officers remain in the communities where ties and roots are already established.

We also have continued examining our policing models and are really looking at solutions with the communities we serve that are community focused and community driven. The RCMP was built on community policing, and we respond to an average of two million calls for service each year. Fewer than 1% of those calls involve use of force. Over 99% of incidents are resolved with our presence, our communication and de-escalation, and not the use of force. For those few incidents where force is used, our training and our protocols provide clear direction on using a minimum amount of force. We rely on de-escalation and crisis intervention when necessary.

When it comes to holding employees to account, we have extensive operational policies designed to ensure transparency, accountability and openness. Policing is a profession that has a broad range of accountability mechanisms. There is oversight in the courts, as well as independent inquiries, commissions, inquests and reviews. We are completely dedicated to making this great organization better than what it was when we started.

My team and myself are determined to get this work done, and we are making progress, but modernization is an ongoing process.

Our goal for the RCMP is to be the most respected and the most trusted police service in the world, grounded in solid relationships with all Canadians, and particularly with our indigenous, black and racialized communities. We need to broaden the space for these difficult discussions and build on the ones already under way. It is an opportunity for real change and leadership, and we are committed to doing just that.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak to you today.

I look forward to your discussions and dialogue.

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Commissioner Lucki.

Mr. Uppal, you have six minutes, please.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Tim Uppal Conservative Edmonton Mill Woods, AB

Thank you, Commissioner, for being here for this important study.

As Canadians, we around the table would all agree that there's so much we have to proud of in being Canadian. We are proud of our history and proud of what Canada is. Of course, there are issues we need to work on in Canada. Racism is one of them, both racist incidents and systemic racism. We've all acknowledged that they exist in our public institutions and in private institutions as well.

This is a very important conversation. It's an important opportunity to study this issue and for legislators to take a look at how we can move forward. As parents, this conversation about racism is one that my wife and I have had with our kids. Racism is not something we can completely shield them from, so it's something we feel they need to understand and to maybe prepare them for as they grow older. Of course, the conversations change, but they're important. The work we're doing today is working to make the system better going into the future, and better for them.

To start off, I just want to ask you about the makeup of the RCMP, the demographics of it. Do you have any statistics? In terms of members with cultural, indigenous or ethnic backgrounds, do you know what the percentages are, overall, for the RCMP? Is that data that you keep? If you do—which would be important for recruitment—where was that five years ago compared to where are you now?

6:20 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Yes, we do keep those statistics. I must put a caveat, though, that the statistics are based on self-identification. If somebody doesn't self-identify, then we don't have those statistics.

Right now in the RCMP, when we talk about the sworn police officers, 78% are male and 21% are female. There are 11.5% who are a visible minority, 7.5% who are aboriginal and 1.6% who are people with disabilities. I don't have the data as of five years ago, but what I do know from our charts is that both females and visible minorities are on the rise, as well as indigenous members. In the last year or so the number of indigenous members has plateaued, but the other two are still rising.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Tim Uppal Conservative Edmonton Mill Woods, AB

Thank you. That's the makeup of all of it. What does that look like in the management ranks?

6:20 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

During my time as commissioner, that has been a huge priority for me. We have 15 commanding officers of each province or division. When I arrived, for example, there was one female commanding officer, and now seven of the 15 are female. In our senior executive committee...because when I talk about diversity, I talk also about the category of employee for us because that brings diverse ideas and thoughts. At one point all senior executives were police officers. Now we have Gail Johnson, who is our chief human resources officer. Our chief informatics officer is female. Our new CFO, who started on Monday, is female. We have me, the commissioner, of course. Those three people I mentioned are all civilian employees. For the first time ever, we have a chief administrative officer who is also civilian. There are actually more civilians on our senior executive than police officers.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Tim Uppal Conservative Edmonton Mill Woods, AB

Do you have statistics on the number of police interactions in Canada, interactions versus those that result in complaints?

I'm just trying to get a sense of the scope of that problem. I know you mentioned use of force. This wouldn't be just specifically use of force but overall complaints.

6:20 p.m.

Commr Brenda Lucki

Actually, it was surprising when I heard the statistics for complaints. We get, on average, about 2,250 to 2,300 complaints a year, and it actually has gone down. In 2018-19, it was 2,317 and in 2019-20 is 2,286.

Just to give you some context, when you make the complaint, the CRCC asks the RCMP to investigate in the first instance, and in 75% of those complaints the complainant is satisfied with the disposition that has come about in that complaint. At the very end of the disposition, it says, “If you are not satisfied....

Somebody mentioned an appeal process in that complaint system. The CRCC is actually the appeal process because 25% of those go to the CRCC, and of those 25%, 75% of the time CRCC is happy with our disposition. It's really 25% of 25% that is the part that is not in agreement, but we do agree with 75% of the recommendations from the CRCC.