Evidence of meeting #11 for Public Safety and National Security in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Alain Babineau  Consultant, Law Enforcement and Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual
Patrick Roy  Inspector, Regional Surveillance Division, Service de police de la Ville de Sherbrooke

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I see quorum. This is meeting number 11 of the Public Safety and National Security Committee.

As witnesses, we have with us as today, Alain Babineau, a retired RCMP officer and social justice advocate.

We also welcome Mr. Patrick Roy and Mr. Éric Roger from the Sherbrooke Police Department.

I'm going to ask Mr. Babineau to start for seven minutes, followed by the officers from Sherbrooke.

It works a bit easier if at around the five-minute mark, you look up at me. I will give you an indication of the time. I don't wish to cut you off, but it will give you an opportunity to complete your remarks.

Mr. Babineau, you have the floor for seven minutes.

3:30 p.m.

Alain Babineau Consultant, Law Enforcement and Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, and thank you for inviting me to appear today. My name is Alain Babineau. I'm a law enforcement and social justice advocate. I also have over 30 years' experience with law enforcement, 28 of which were with the RCMP.

I'm here this afternoon to talk to you about systemic racism and discrimination in policing and what I think needs to be done to purge the profession of these.

Systemic racism far too often rears its ugly head in policing in two different ways. First, in the way in which we deliver police services to BIPOC communities, and second, in the way police services often treat their own few racialized officers.

First of all, I believe that law enforcement protects the foundation of our society and that every action it poses touches a life in a significant way, positively or negatively. As trust in police also defines the extent to which members of the public view the police as legitimate, if police lose public confidence, it can compromise their ability and authority to work effectively.

Secondly, I believe that whether the public's decreased confidence in policing is caused by the behaviour of so-called individual bad apples or organizational recklessness and apathy in dealing with those bad apples, these issues negatively affect trust in the police, particularly among the most vulnerable communities.

In spite of the 1999 R. v. Brown decision by the Ontario Superior Court, which identified the racial profiling concept of “driving while Black”, and the 2019 judicial recognition by the Supreme Court of the notion of systemic racial profiling in the R. v. Le decision, the issue of racial profiling by law enforcement remains arguably one of the most highly contested topics of conversation in criminal justice today.

Internal systemic discrimination has been part of policing organizations for decades, and cannot be addressed unless identified clearly. Senator Murray Sinclair said:

Some people believe that systemic racism is when everybody in the system is a racist and there is no system where everybody is a racist.

He clarified, though:

Systemic racism is when the system itself is based upon and founded upon racist beliefs and philosophies and thinking and has put in place policies and practices that literally force even the non-racists to act in a racist way.

In 2019, the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians annual report revealed that resistance to diversity and inclusion is strongest among the non-commissioned officer rank from which the future officers are drawn.

As commissioned officers are decision-makers and leaders in policing, this information is very concerning to me. During my 30 years in law enforcement, and since George Floyd's death, I've spoken to enough BIPOC officers to know that what I personally experienced and witnessed during my service is reflective of the experience of many with systemic discrimination within their respective organizations.

We must keep in mind that in policing, possibly more than any other field, the possession of social capital is essential. In this culture, trust, norms and networks approved by the dominant group, and those who hold the key to success determine who achieve advancement through the organization. Consequently, because of the lack of critical numbers, BIPOC members struggle with acquiring social capital.

To be fair, I must say that over the years, in an attempt to respond to the realities of diversity, police services have adopted policies, initiatives and practices to reflect community representation. However, in my opinion and that of many visible minority police officers, it is easy to see the gap between the adoption of diversity policies and their actual implementation within organizations.

While some individual human rights complaints contained descriptions of behaviour that reflect a racist workplace culture, during an investigation the dots are not usually connected, and an underlying pattern of systemic discrimination is not identified.

From my experience with the Quebec Human Rights Commission, the police ethics commissioner, as well as the Canadian Human Rights Commission, those agencies are far too often either unable or unwilling to investigate complaints of race or systemic discrimination in a meaningful way. As a result, those agencies perpetuate the problem of systemic racism in policing.

With respect to police unions, historically BIPOC officers have not felt heard by them. For example, RCMP's fledging National Police Federation, which does not have a single BIPOC member on its board, essentially attacked the commissioner last summer when she finally recognized the existence of systemic racism in the RCMP.

However the NPF is not alone. Right across Canada police unions have rapidly been rejecting the existence of any form of systemic discrimination within their particular service. As a result, various iterations of backlash have been filed by BIPOC officers right across the nation.

As I mentioned throughout my remarks, systemic discrimination on the ground and inequalities within the police are deeply linked to a history of exclusion and prejudice. From an anti-discrimination perspective, there is an urgent need to examine the policies, practices and behaviours that encourage, condone and tolerate discrimination in any police organization.

Based on a previous lack of meaningful effort in the area of employment equity and policing, the federal government now has an opportunity to direct meaningful cultural changes in the RCMP so that it becomes an example for all other police services in this country to follow.

With respect to racial profiling, I believe that the federal government must also take the lead and pass an anti-racial profiling law. A proposed bill was tabled by the NDP in 2005, but it died in the end because of the federal election.

Ladies and gentlemen, with respect to eradication of systemic racism in policing, I say to you, “If not now, then when”.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

With that I'll call on the Sherbrooke police service to present in whatever order it wishes.

3:35 p.m.

Patrick Roy Inspector, Regional Surveillance Division, Service de police de la Ville de Sherbrooke

I am Inspector Patrick Roy, manager of the Équipe mobile d'intervention psychosociale, the mobile psychosocial intervention team, or ÉMIP. I am accompanied by Sergeant Éric Roger, field supervising sergeant on the same team.

The work of our intervention team in the field is more related to mental health than to systemic racism. Of course, there may be some overlap on the street when police are involved, but our presentation is, in essence, about mental health.

Our organization has some 300 employees for a population of 170,000 people. We are located one hour and 15 minutes from Montreal. In 2015, like all police organizations in Quebec and across Canada, I imagine, we had to deal with an emerging mental health-related phenomenon in the field. Police officers had to face this, even though they were neither mental health experts nor social workers.

At the same time, the Centre intégré universitaire de santé et de services sociaux de l'Estrie also noticed the emergence of a problematic situation on the streets. In 2015, we therefore decided to unite the forces of the police service and the hospital in order to create a joint unit in each patrol vehicle, that is to say a police patrol officer and a social worker.

We were inspired by the model that already existed at the Service de police de la Ville de Montréal at the time, namely the Équipe de soutien aux urgences psychosociales, ÉSUP, the psychosocial emergency support team. In 2015, our project got under way. You should know that in 2015, our patrollers were each spending seven hours a day on the streets to deal with mental health management. At that time, this tool became a must.

In 2016, the mobile outreach team was made up of a joint social worker and police patrol officer, operating two nights a week. As this initiative proved successful, in 2017 the presence of the mixed team was increased to three nights a week, and in 2018, to four nights a week. In 2018, our organization realized that our police officers were shifting from 7 to 14 work hours per day spent on mental health management, despite the team in the field.

In 2018, we were answering approximately 1,400 mental health-related calls per year; our mixed team on four nights a week answered 263 of those calls. That's when we decided, once again, to make a major organizational shift and appoint five police officers, five full-time resources, to manage mental health, seven days a week, seven nights a week. The social workers are still with us four nights a week. The rest of the time and slots are filled by police officers who have become mental health specialists rather than generalists.

The mission of the joint team and our police officers is simple: to promote multidisciplinary collaboration and support police work when dealing with people in crisis or whose mental state is disrupted, in order to facilitate their access to adapted services, whether in the areas of justice, health or community support.

Once our five resources were appointed, we established their roles and responsibilities. They are not social workers, and the leadership for health is not with the police service; it is with health. Whether we are talking about a police officer, a social worker, a doctor, or you in your families, we have to recognize that the number of people with mental health problems is increasing and we need to treat them. These people are not suspects to the police community; they are individuals. They become people, men and women, whom we need to guide rather than send to the judicial system. Prosecution is not necessarily the best tool.

Therefore, the role of these police officers, these five permanent police officers, is to support the generalist patrol officers in the application of laws and regulations related to persons whose mental state is disturbed; to take ownership and manage specific recurring cases; to analyze, plan and coordinate all requests for intervention related to treatment orders from the Commission d'examen des troubles mentaux or from various courts in Quebec, in order to proceed with the enforcement of orders, in collaboration with social workers.

Their role is also to support the management of runaways and missing persons with mental health problems; to support general police divisions in the field and the investigation of people who are homeless and suffering from mental health problems; to help police officers obtain requests for orders to bring people for care; to assist health services with complex cases within the territory of the City of Sherbrooke; to represent our organization by sitting on committees; and to publish follow-up reports tracking mental health.

The most important aspect of our organization is that these five officers participate in the development of our generalist police officers through coaching, mentoring, training and awareness.

I will now describe how an intervention proceeds from the moment we receive a call. We receive a call at the 911 emergency centre, and there is a confirmation that it is related to mental health. Our specialist police officers, accompanied by the social worker or not, travel with our generalist police officers to the indicated location. Once the situation is secured, the generalist police officers leave the premises and the specialist police officers take care of the follow-up and supervision of the individuals. Very often, the latter are not suspects.

In addition, these police specialists are trained in de-escalation and are familiar with communication strategies. They are trained in all types of mental health problems so that they can recognize them and then intervene. They also receive training on drugs and psychotic effects. They receive training from the range of health care providers and others, including mental health first aid, to help them target the type of intervention.

Finally, they take part in several committees, including a provincial mental health committee, a mental health-related committee and the regional strategic committee on homelessness. They are part of all focus groups.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Roy.

Have you finished?

3:40 p.m.

Inspector, Regional Surveillance Division, Service de police de la Ville de Sherbrooke

Patrick Roy

I think my seven minutes are up.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

We're already over seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Inspector, Regional Surveillance Division, Service de police de la Ville de Sherbrooke

Patrick Roy

Fine.

If there are any questions, we can talk about the expected results and findings from the field.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Excellent.

We're now on to the six-minute round of questions, starting with Mr. Motz, followed by Madame Lambropoulos, Madame Michaud and Mr. Harris.

Mr. Motz.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you very much to our witnesses: Mr. Babineau, Inspector Roy and Sergeant Roger.

I can't help but say, Inspector, that you must get a lot of fun playing with that name of yours. You must get a lot of mileage out of that, given that you were a goaltender with the Canadiens for years. Good for you.

I want to ask both groups a couple of questions. I will start with you, Mr. Babineau.

First of all, to all three of you, thank you for your service to the communities, and for your [Technical difficulty—Editor]

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

His feed just froze there for a second.

This looks like a day for technical difficulties. In fact, I had a meeting earlier this morning that had to be cancelled because of technical difficulties.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Chair, we can't hear you.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

That's a bonus.

Glen, you're on mute.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

I'm sorry. I don't know what happened; everything just went blank on me.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Okay, you can wind back to where you were complimenting the inspector for his goaltending skills.

December 7th, 2020 / 3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Mr. Babineau, I want to ask you directly about the RCMP complaints process. As I was saying, we know it's backlogged and complex, but that's the public complaints process. I want to focus more on the internal process. We had a witness at our committee last week who spoke of some of the issues going on inside the complaints process. Obviously we need a fix. We need to fix the public complaints process, and I want to get your thoughts on this. First of all, the public safety minister has amalgamated CBSA and the RCMP into one public complaints commission, if you will. I want to get your thoughts on how you think that will play out.

Is there a way we can fix the internal process for the RCMP?

3:45 p.m.

Consultant, Law Enforcement and Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual

Alain Babineau

It's a big question.

First of all, there are two different processes for dealing with systemic discrimination and systemic racism. A person can go through two different processes. Number one is harassment, and the other one is if there's an issue with promotion or other things, which can addressed by way of grievances.

Historically, the RCMP processes, regardless of the type of complaint, have been wholly inefficient in dealing with racism period, much less systemic racism. I still think there's a lack of understanding, a lack of acknowledgement and, quite frankly, a lack of training to be able to investigate systemic discrimination complaints.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

With that being said, sir, what do you propose? If we're going to need a new oversight model—

3:45 p.m.

Consultant, Law Enforcement and Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual

Alain Babineau

Clearly. Absolutely.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

If that's the case, what do you suggest that model should look like?

3:45 p.m.

Consultant, Law Enforcement and Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual

Alain Babineau

First of all, the model should be totally independent from the RCMP. It should be completely separate. It should be diverse in composition and should be well trained in what systemic racism is all about. Until that happens, I'm afraid those complaints will be woefully handled.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

With that in mind, does a best practice model currently exist in this country that the RCMP could model itself after?

3:45 p.m.

Consultant, Law Enforcement and Social Justice Advocate, As an Individual

Alain Babineau

Quite frankly, I'm not aware of any. The Ontario Human Rights Commission might be the closest thing to a model, as they are able to investigate systemic racism within police agencies. They did that in North Bay, I think, with the North Bay Police Department a few years ago. They identified a systemic pattern of racism within that police department, but I think that would be the closest thing to a model that we can hope the RCMP could aim to become.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB

Thank you for those comments.

Inspector Roy, I've got a couple questions for you. For this mobile psychosocial intervention team that you described so well for us, did your service receive any additional funding from government, either provincial or federal, for that program?

3:50 p.m.

Inspector, Regional Surveillance Division, Service de police de la Ville de Sherbrooke

Patrick Roy

Can you hear me?