Public Safety Committee on Feb. 1st, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, if we're going to get through our 10 minutes in 10 minutes, we're going to have to not allow an answer to come.

Mr. Lightbound, please go ahead for two minutes.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

I want to thank both witnesses for their presentations and for their very important work.

The report clearly states that it was completely inappropriate to include the visit to a massage parlour in Mr. Gallese's strategy. The case management team made a mistake. There's even a disciplinary investigation under way.

I also gather from your comments that you want to see a broader policy change.

I would be curious to hear your comments on the impact of Bill C-36. In particular, the bill criminalized the purchase of sexual services. If my memory serves me correctly, the bill was passed six or seven years ago. How has the bill affected you?

[Sandra Wesley]

First, the legislation criminalizes not only the purchase of sexual services, but also all activities related to sex work. This means that the sex worker commits a criminal act every time she sells her sexual services. This is much broader than simply criminalizing clients.

The impact is enormous. All sorts of information is available to show the impact.

In our community, we can see very clearly that this puts us at high risk of contracting HIV. We know that decriminalizing sex work in Canada would reduce new infections among sex workers by about 33%.

Moreover, as a result of the legislation, it's much more difficult to report violence and to access protection.

There are also many crackdowns on sex work. We've seen extreme and very traumatic cases of police crackdowns. For example, we've had 10, 20 or 30 police officers come into our establishments to catalogue our tattoos and piercings. They told us that they'll be able to identify our bodies when they find us dead. The police officers now have a mandate to convince us to stop working in the sex industry.

The criminalization of sex work has also exacerbated the overdose crisis.

With regard to missing and murdered indigenous women, we've seen that the criminalization of sex work creates vulnerabilities. The women in our communities who are most likely to be arrested or to have hostile contact with the police are also the women who are most at risk of being victims of murder, violence or other criminal acts.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Madam Michaud, please go ahead for one minute.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be brief.

As the witnesses said earlier, the case of Marylène Levesque isn't isolated. A number of sex workers have been victims of homicide in recent years.

My question is along the same lines as Mr. Lightbound's question. You rightly pointed out that Canada's criminal laws make women vulnerable to violence by requiring them to work in isolated locations, for example. In your view, decriminalizing sex work in general would be one option.

What specific legislative changes would be needed to ensure that women are less vulnerable to violence?

[Sandra Wesley]

Our organization is a member of the Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform. Three years ago, we released a report, which I sent to your clerk, with very detailed and clear recommendations. In the report, we proposed that consultations be held with about 30 groups across Canada created by and for sex workers. The recommendations could very easily be used as a draft bill.

We're calling for full decriminalization, meaning the complete removal of all references to sex work from the Criminal Code. Instead, as workers, we want access to labour standards and other protections. We're asking that, in situations involving violence, the other provisions of the Criminal Code apply.

There are also all sorts of recommendations regarding the impact at the provincial level.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I apologize for interrupting people. I'm running the clock kind of hard so we can get through to our next set of witnesses.

Mr. Harris, go ahead for one minute.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Ms. Wesley, I'm going to ask you one question concerning Bill C-36. I speak as someone who voted against that bill when it was before the House in 2014.

Is there any way that a complaint, for example, to your organization from the massage parlour identifying Mr. Gallese as a threat to women could have worked? Is there any way, under that legislation, that could have been reported without endangering the circumstances and the vulnerability of Ms. Levesque and the others who worked in that parlour?

[Sandra Wesley]

We only receive reports from sex workers and disseminate them to other sex workers. We don't go to police, because most sex workers don't. In the current context, even if that massage parlour had contacted the cops, the likelihood of it being taken seriously and any meaningful action being taken is pretty slim. Because the law is so hostile to sex workers and the attitude of police is so hostile to sex workers, we're usually received with nothing but contempt and dismissive attitudes from police.

Obviously, what we aim for in a decriminalized context would be to be able to report those things. We work very, very hard in organizations like mine to try to accompany women who want to press charges, who want to denounce violence to police. It is pretty rare that any serious action is taken by police.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

The next Conservative questioner is Mr. Kurek.

Please go ahead for two minutes.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank our two witnesses for joining us today.

I would like to continue with the question Mr. Van Popta asked Ms. Grenier with regard to blaming the Parole Board and Correctional Service of Canada.

You didn't have a chance to reply before—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Madam Grenier, Mr. Kurek was directing his question to you.

[Josianne Grenier]

Can you repeat the question, Mr. Kurek?

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Sure, Mr. Chair, if I could have a few extra moments of time.

Ms. Grenier, I want to give you the opportunity to answer Mr. Van Popta's question about whether or not blame should be attributed to the Parole Board and I would extend it to Correctional Service of Canada and if they had some responsibility for this terrible tragedy.

[Josianne Grenier]

I find the word “blame” a bit strong.

Obviously, mistakes were made, such as letting the man out too early and letting him believe that it was possible to visit these establishments. I believe that the permission to do so had already been withdrawn at the time of the murder. The man shouldn't have been out at that time.

In addition to these considerations, many other steps must be taken to truly ensure the safety of sex workers.

The Correctional Service of Canada and the Parole Board of Canada aren't solely to blame. That's my response.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Ms. Wesley, observers of the justice system have criticized, in particular, the judicial and correctional system.

Is this an example of rehabilitation at all costs, the circumstances that led to this tragedy?

[Sandra Wesley]

It's the complete opposite of that. There has been absolutely no evidence of any rehabilitation in this case. I know there seems to be a desire to turn the death of the sex worker into some sort of indictment of the criminal justice system, to have a more repressive and punitive approach. Sex workers do not stand for that.

We are against carceral and punitive approaches even for the people who commit acts of violence against us. We believe in rehabilitation, not at all cost, but in a meaningful, intelligent, dedicated way to minimize incarceration, and to eventually get to a point where we drastically reduce the number of crimes that are committed and the amount of violence that exists in our community. We know that punishment is not the solution.

Please do not use our deaths and the violence that we experience to push an agenda to further incarcerate us in our community.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Who is next for the Liberals?

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I am, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Madam Damoff, you have two minutes, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to both of our witnesses for this testimony.

I think we should be clear that notifying the massage parlour is not the answer. He should never have been allowed, and never was supposed to have been allowed, to go there in the first place.

I want to direct my questions to you, Ms. Wesley, because I really appreciate what you were talking about in terms of sex workers and the restrictions on them that were put in place.

One of the things that got changed during the Conservative era in corrections was the type of programming that was offered in prison. If we expect people to get out of prison and be able to function in society....

First of all, I'm wondering if you think it's a really important thing that Corrections needs to look at. Second of all, have you ever been consulted on that type of thing and would you be interested in being consulted if they were to start to enhance their programming?

[Sandra Wesley]

We absolutely would be interested in being consulted. At Stella we've been working in prisons with incarcerated women since the beginning of our organization in the 1990s. We see first-hand the overrepresentation of marginalized people and the lack of meaningful rehabilitation. This applies to everyone. It applies to violent offenders, including the violent women who we support. It applies also to non-violent people who are there for reasons of poverty.

Most people come out of prison worse off than they were before going in, and that's a really big problem. We would be very interested in being consulted on programming, policies and everything that can be put in place, so that by the time people come out of prison they're able to lead a healthier life and to not be a danger to other people, and also to find some sort of peace and happiness.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I think that's my time, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yes. You ran the clock perfectly, Madam Damoff.

Witnesses, on behalf of the committee, I want to thank both of you for coming. Again, I apologize for rushing this, but we are in a pandemic and we are in a virtual Parliament, and the virtual Parliament doesn't necessarily operate as efficiently as the real Parliament. Nevertheless, I want to thank you for your time.

With that, we'll suspend while we empanel the second group of witnesses.

The meeting is suspended.